Josseli Barnica grieved the news as she lay in a Houston hospital bed on Sept. 3, 2021: The sibling she’d dreamt of giving her daughter would not survive this pregnancy.
The fetus was on the verge of coming out, its head pressed against her dilated cervix; she was 17 weeks pregnant and a miscarriage was “in progress,” doctors noted in hospital records. At that point, they should have offered to speed up the delivery or empty her uterus to stave off a deadly infection, more than a dozen medical experts told ProPublica.
But when Barnica’s husband rushed to her side from his job on a construction site, she relayed what she said the medical team had told her: “They had to wait until there was no heartbeat,” he told ProPublica in Spanish. “It would be a crime to give her an abortion.”
For 40 hours, the anguished 28-year-old mother prayed for doctors to help her get home to her daughter; all the while, her uterus remained exposed to bacteria.
Three days after she delivered, Barnica died of an infection.
there’s another thread about outsiders’ criticisms of lemmy, and one of the comments mentioned that it’s “unwelcoming to right wing viewpoints”
I WONDER FUCKING WHY
let’s keep it that way, the right-wing should be unwelcome everywhere
1000%. So long as right-wing equates to racist, seditious, traitorous bastards, then yeah…you’re not welcome here or anywhere else in this country. Go find Jesus or something.
yeah, definitions are hard, but in general I tend to think of the right as promoting traditional hierarchy and the left as being egalitarian.
Any amount of right wing will never sit well with me after trump. Things could flip and the conservatives could somehow be fighting for workers rights and I’d still side with the party that supports women’s right to chose etc.
If lemmy became a right wing cess pool I’d be done with it in a heart beat. There are a lot of shit ideas on this platform and I do wish I could find my tribe but as much as I know of them, they are my people.
What country?
Most right wingers think their views are legitimate because the right wing exists as the direct opposition to the left. But i think that view is warped.
We need to start considering right wingers as extremists and not the opposition. They should be outliers on a spectrum where the left is much more central and the right is much more to the extreme right
|----------------------------------------left wing----‐-----center----------------------------------------right wing--------|
Like that
They think their views are as right as ours are left. If they were, they would likely be welcome here.
I don’t really see what is wrong with authentically egalitarian politics, so I’m inclined to think the “center” is just a euphemism for right-wing.
If a left wing movement fails in its egalitarianism, like when the USSR had slave camps, then I think we should not think of that movement as left wing at all, it just fails the definition of being left wing.
The common response to this is that it is a form of no true scotsman fallacy, which I think could be a legitimate concern since you might define a left wing ideal as the definition and anything failing to live up to the perfection of that ideal is not “left”. But on the other hand, I don’t know how else to consider some politics authentically egalitarian and worth supporting and others inauthentic or corrupt and embodying hierarchical or right-wing tendencies. Maybe there is no bright line we can draw or reduce to a logical equation, but I would like to think there is still some value in evaluating which politics to support (i.e. which politics are furthering egalitarian means or ends).
Or, hear me out, discard the left-right metaphor for the nonsense that it is and refer to ideologies by their names. There is no left, there are communists/socialists and anarchists. There is no center, there are liberals and conservatives. There is no right, there are fascists and “libertarians.”
The left-right metaphor is a set of training wheels, and by continuing to use them you sabotage your own political understanding.
I think it’s important to clarify what is left or right because that’s how people talk and think - a lot of political language is warped or difficult to clarify. When I explain what liberals are to people in the U.S. they simply refuse to believe me. They think “liberal” can only mean “the left” and this has a whole set of assumptions built into it. When I ask them about the Liberal party in Australia they legitimately don’t understand it, and it seems like people are extremely stubborn around political topics and unwilling to believe you when you say something so against their understanding.
I think whether a “communist” or “socialist” is left-wing depends on a few things, I don’t consider Marxist-Leninism a left-wing movement or ideology for example.
I also tend to be skeptical that ideology is relevant to political movements, and that most of the time politics is reduced to the struggle of different constituents who pragmatically use ideology to manipulate people into supporting that constituency. Much like racism was leveraged to get the agrarian, southern whites in the U.S. to vote for the interests of wealthy landowners in that region, I think ideological promises or affiliations are often used to whip up support and then dropped once elected in favor of whatever is needed to get things done.
Sometimes I think ideology applies, it’s hard to understand the particular flavor of George W. Bush’s imperialism without understanding the Christian motivation to wage a religious war, but even that is ultimately more about civilizational struggle" than it is about any particular religious or theological belief.
Anyway, I just mean to say that most political language sabotages political understanding, and that maybe understanding is a tricky endeavor.
I think most conservatives are just unintelligent so they’re ripe for fox news to tell them what to think. Yes, there was a study that showed conservatives are less intelligent than leftists
Reality has a left-wing bias
Ok I’m a lefty but I’ve always hated this statement. It is the launching point of a great deal of ignorance and idiocy, kind of like some religious dogma.
But… It’s observable fact…
A typical position held by people who call themselves “left” is a desire to completely ban gun ownership on the grounds that gun ownership leads to gun violence.
Gun violence was much lower when you could buy actual machine guns right off the shelf, and mass shootings were virtually unheard of. What happened since then, and how would banning guns fix it?
This is just one of many blind spots that make the statement unrealistic.
Except if you go far enough left, you get your guns back…
I mean I’m down as long as we’re not talking going full tankie
I think it’s more shorthand for the fact people generally do want to take care of each other and make sure everyone has the opportunity for a happy life.
Though I suppose it is a little cheeky to say that means people are left leaning.
Plenty of church-going pro-lifers feel like they’re doing the best for their communities and people in general. It’s why when we make arguments we need to not talk down to people like they’re idiots, because they generally are not.
If I was on the receiving end of a line that far up it’s own ass I’d stop listening immediately.
I said it a bit in jest, though as explained, I think it’s still somewhat a true statement. I wouldn’t actually say this to people who don’t identify as left-leaning, because as you point out, it would be counter-productive.
I wish the world was unwelcoming to right-wing viewpoints. This is the result and so many people are fine with it. It’s so depressing.
Unfortunately you’ll have to get used to it and continue challenging them. The polycrisis is only going to get worse and the number of refugees from the impact of climate change and climate change related causes i.e. conflict from collapsing food / water access and / or failed states.
In the next 10 to 20 years life quality will peak and then will start collapsing over the next 50.
When that happens a significant cohort of the population will close ranks and want to “protect” those closest around them, the desire the ultra-rich have for isolation will continue to trickle down into the rich and remnants of the upper middle class as the wealth gap widens. In times of crisis this cohort pushes further and further right.
So keep working against these forces so we can get the rich to pay their fair share to fix these problems but be prepared to take up arms when the house of cards that is the relative stability we have now collapses.
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Probably the most common right-wing taking point these days. This is the level of discourse the GOP has to offer at this point
Their trollish response to me suggests they’re not the most educated of people.
They rarely are. Hate is stupid and easy. You don’t need to think in order to hate, you just see someone and decide they’re bad for whatever reason you like. Heck, if you can’t find a reason let Fox and Friends™ find one for ya 😀
As Trump once said, “I love the poorly-educated.”
Yes. That’s the sort of thing.
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“I added nothing useful to the conversation and got nothing useful out of it. Fuckin’ leftists.”
🤣
Hey, mod here. I’ve removed 2 of your comments, because they were trolling. Please read the rules. The next time this happens, we will be giving you a temporary ban.
Any space thats welcoming for me (a trans person) is unwelcoming to right wing viewpoints.
> Talks against healthcare
> Wonders why nobody likes those speeches
Paradox of tolerance. They aren’t welcome because they tend not to play nice with others.
I feel genuinely bad for the non-facist conservatives, but today they’d be called leftist too, so I think it’s still fair to say it really shouldn’t be welcome anywhere because the term has become very extreme.
“non-fascist conservatives” have spent the last 40 years obstructing and cozying up to fascists rather than play well with others. They knew what they were doing.
Or, to be as charitable as possible, they’re useful idiots who are lazily unaware of how heinous the people they’re blindly following are.
They’re not exactly unaware, but only care for how it affects them. Anything heinous that happens to someone else is seen as completely irrelevant.
This is how it works though, right? They keep ostracizing groups until they run out of out-groups to attack and the next round begins. The old inner circle is now the circle and a new inner circle is proclaimed, the new outgroup(s) are revealed, and the feeding frenzy continues.
This is what always baffles me about minorities that are staunchly Republican. They’re actually voting for themselves to be put on the chopping block (just not right away)
This is exactly why fascism is ultimately self-defeating. The only question is how many people get hurt in the meantime.
Right-wingers don’t have viewpoints. Fascism is not a legitimate political position. It is a threat. We don’t call a serial killer’s propensity to kill a “viewpoint”. Conservatives have motives, not viewpoints.
They can stay on X.
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This is fucking barbaric. The hospital let her sit for 40 hours with a fetus hanging out of her uterus. Just take a moment to imagine what that alone must have felt like aside from the emotional horror of losing a pregnancy. We wouldn’t even imagine treating pets or livestock this way but it’s clear that these repugnant forced-birthers don’t consider women to be people. One little pill to speed up the labor that her body already decided was needed was all that was required to keep this woman alive. What’s the point of even having healthcare when we can’t rely on it.
God. I agree. This is horrific. And we have the audacity to consider ourselves a first-world country. Texans should immediately take themselves to the state house to demand better. Our tax dollars pay for hospitals to treat us, not to kill us.
Not a lawyer, but I wonder if there a case to be made with letting a woman get an infection and die due to the fear of commiting a crime by killing the baby. In the end, two people died, but one could have survived.
Oh you can rely on it… Only if you are Male, White, and Wealthy.
A texas woman didn’t die, a texas woman was murdered by the state’s ignorant, bigoted, christo-fascist policy - abbott, patrick, cruz, gohmert, that cock eyed AG and the rest of them along with every complicit texas republican voter… they all have blood on their cowardly hands.
Ok, and? What consequences are they going to face? How will their quality of life be diminished in any way?
I’ll answer for you: none, because we, the little people, do not matter. Period.
I want change by any means necessary.
I have been sharpening my guillotine … It could fix some things
I’ll bring the Murphy’s wood oil and get that frame polished up real nice
Only the best for these demons!!
Gotta keep those grooves clean so the blade doesn’t bind on the way down
These are the practical guillotine tips that I live for!
Comments like these do less than nothing. We need to actually go outside and organize against the people taking our freedoms away. Protests, signing petitions, civil disobedience, even just donating goes a hell of a lot farther than writing comments on the internet.
Oh completely agree… I’m also just having a laugh
Here’s hoping Allred wiped the stage with cruz enough to show a little hope to anyone with any good in them left in the state.
And if she didn’t get murdered, she could have been charged for murder for having a miscarriage.
Pure fucking rage. Not advocating for violance but, I would vote not guilty.
Somewhat ironic username considering that’s exactly what every conservative is, smile and vote to fuck your buddy over. I’d be another on the not guilty
And Republicans will never care about it. Fucking ghouls.
There’s always an acceptable number of deaths with the GOP. It’s just happens to be infinite when it comes to healthcare, pandemics, poverty, guns - basically anything that won’t result in punishing innocent brown people. In that case the number is extremely low.
Not only will they not care, they will dismiss it and joke about it. From the article (regarding a different woman who died from being denied life saving medical care):
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp called the reporting “fear mongering.” Former President Donald Trump has not weighed in — except to joke that his Fox News town hall on women’s issues would get “better ratings” than a press call where Thurman’s family spoke about their pain.
Many noted a striking similarity to the case of Savita Halappavanar, a 31-year-old woman who died of septic shock in 2012 after providers in Ireland refused to empty her uterus while she was miscarrying at 17 weeks. When she begged for care, a midwife told her, “This is a Catholic country.” The resulting investigation and public outcry galvanized the country to change its strict ban on abortion.
But in the wake of deaths related to abortion access in the United States, leaders who support restricting the right have not called for any reforms.
My country’s aptitude for remaining entirely unmoved by preventable tragedies that utterly upend political trajectories in other nations has become one of our most globally defining traits.
Many noted a striking similarity to the case of Savita Halappavanar, a 31-year-old woman who died of septic shock in 2012 after providers in Ireland refused to empty her uterus while she was miscarrying at 17 weeks. When she begged for care, a midwife told her, “This is a Catholic country.” The resulting investigation and public outcry galvanized the country to change its strict ban on abortion.
And that’s the difference between a sane country and America. We don’t even blink when children are murdered in schools- we sure as shit aren’t going to do anything about dead women.
Supreme Court scandal
Gun violence
Police brutality
Politicized natural disaster relief
Food insecurity
Homelessness
Drug epidemic
Pregnancy mortality
And, last but not least:Fascist attempted coup
America: 🤷♂️
America: this is a very close election, we just can’t make up our minds. what about palestine?
I don’t understand how a miscarriage counts as abortion. The baby literally died in the womb. This law is sickening. My sister-in-law had a miscarriage last year and it’s scary to think that she could lose her life by trying to become a mother. The crazy part is her religion essentially tells women they aren’t fulfilling their duty to God if they don’t become a mother. (Mormon)
For them, abortion is extinguishing a life. In this case, the fetus, although no longer viable due to mechanical impossibility BUT still connected to the umbilical cord and inside the placenta, gave it a heartbeat. Any human intervention that would cause that heartbeat to go away, such as inducing labor, manual or physical extraction, or even manual dilation of the cervix, since the fetus being way too young to survive outside of the mother, would end up being the cause of that heartbeat going away, and thus, murder, in their eyes. All they “can” do is “Let nature run its course”
It is beyond stupid, cruel and horrible. Those laws are actively killing people through neglect.
Edit: Miscarriage does not mean the fetus “died”, it merely means failure to carry to term or to point where the fetus can survive outside of the mother, which is usually flagged at 20 weeks. When labour started, at an unsustainable pregnancy length, it is counted as a miscarriage because the fetus can’t survive on it’s own, however it was not a spontaneous abortion because there was still a heartbeat.
Its the downside of being a melting-pot: too many different worldviews. The Australians could get together and ban guns, the Irish could fight for women’s rights. Here, if one side of the country tries to enact change the other side will fight tooth and nail to stop it.
Disgusting that a life was lost over a “person” that would have never existed. This is doing wonders for the birthrate they are so worried about. I wonder if they just assumed this only effects the poors cause wealthier people would go to less restricted hospitals.
I don’t know why but “person” in quotations just rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think we have to dismiss the value of an unborn life in order to support abortion - they’re not mutually exclusive. In this case I would argue that there were two tragedies, one committed by “God” and the other by the state of Texas.
The fetus was nonviable, it might be tragic but it was not and could never have been a person.
That’s why I put the quotes. Some people may call it a person. I don’t. That was me trying to respect the other side.
I think I’m just sensitive because I’m pro-choice but constantly get painted as heartless and uncaring by my pro-life family. Viable or not, I feel something for these unborn things, just like my family - the only difference is that I don’t prioritize my feelings over the rights of other people, nor do I shy away from the fact that abortions can be necessary and merciful. I am an ally in this fight, but if you’re dismissing the miracle of life as nothing more than a medical condition, you’re not helping the cause - to some extent you’re a liability to those of us trying to actually win people over.
Vote Kamala Harris and your sisters, wives and daughters might stop dying for lack of health care when pregnant. Allow Trump to regain power and it will get much, much worse for the women you care about.
What is the course of action that you expect Kamala to take that would prevent this situation in Texas? And if you have one, why hasn’t Biden done it already?
Win the WH, win both houses of Congress, blow up the filibuster and enact national protections for abortion.
Will it work? Probably not. It definitely won’t happen if Trump wins, though.
Plus if Trump wins, Alito and Thomas retire and get replaced by 25 year old fascists and things get even worse for decades.
I dunno if you were being sincere or intentionally obtuse, but it’s kind of straightforward that we have to win.
I am not American, nor the person you responded to, but in 2020 the Democrats won the white house, the Senate, and the House of Representatives.
As an outsider looking in, why is there the expectation that Kamala doing it again in 2024 will have a different result?
Unfortunately the Democrats need slightly more than a bare majority because some Democrats might as well be Republicans.
Kamala has also stated her support for exempting this legislation from the filibuster, something Biden didn’t do. She wouldn’t technically have the power herself, but might get Senate Democrats on board.
Back in 2020, I read op-eds from several pundits who worried that choosing Biden was a mistake, as he ran on a platform essentially of returning politics to “normal.” They worried that once he won, people would settle back into the old routines, and forget about the simmering fascist threat and do diddly about it. I remember this well, because I feared the same.
That’s pretty much what happened. Credit to the House January 6th special committee for finally forcing Merrick Garland to get off his ass and do a something about the insurrection… 2 years later. (Which made it easy to delay the trial until after the next election.) That’s about it, though. Hell, this wasn’t difficult to predict, given the way that Obama decided to “look forward” and not hold Bush administration officials accountable for their crimes.
That is to say, if Harris wins, I predict more of the same. Folks on the blue side will breathe a sigh of relief, make excuses for why they can’t act, and do their best to forget about it until the next most-important-election-in-history. We (Americans) don’t have a plan to deal with it, and they’ll instead just get angry and call you and me disingenuous, or Russian bots, for pointing it out.
That shit hasn’t happened in less contentious times, I literally cannot imagine it happening now.
Ok probably not sincere.
The contentiousness is what put killing the filibuster on the table. In less contentious times, we didn’t need to destroy basic political norms just to save people’s lives.
It takes basically no effort to vote. Things are clearly better with Harris winning than Trump.
You think I’m not sincere, and I think you’re delusional.
You arent sincere. You dont bring any arguments to the table while all the people you are arguing with did. Why do you think Trump would make this situation better when he is the reason this issue exists?
Roe v Wade still existed in less contentious times.
Not actively, gleefully making things worse. Biden is doing this.
Working to stack the Supreme Court, and triggering a constitutional crisis in the process because the Republican Senate will refuse confirmation, and the Supreme Court that was stacked with self-contradictory GOP bullshit will agree with them would be the interesting move that won’t happen because the Democrats are cowards and institutionalists rather than fascist monsters.
What definitely will happen with Kamala is that women in New York or California don’t suffer the same fate next year as well.
This avoidable and preventable death brought to you by “pro life” partisans.
Anti-choice is gaining more traction and is more accurate. Anti-choice or pro-death is more appropriate and logically consistent
All life is sacred, except when its not
Well off Republican Christian lives that can afford to go out of state for their moral abortion is sacred to them
Republicans: “God’s will.”
As long as there was no abortion, their view is she deserves it.
Its funny how religious people love invoking their holy books to justify hatred and violence while ignoring the parts explicitly saying to not judge others and that human life is more valuable then any commandment from god (also the torah/old testament allows abortion in many cases). Its almost as if those “religious people” don’t care about religion and just want an excuse to hate.
Fuck your God.
Well, actually there is no god, or gods, but you know, fuck your idea of what a God would be like
Pro lifers kill again. They rate the right to live of potential life higher than someone who has been here for 28 years. Someone who left a husband and a child behind. I have to accept I hate pro lifers for the harm they cause. There is no justice in this world as long as these inhuman and barbaric laws are killing people. Real people, not potential people.
The hospital should be sued for death from negligence
The hospital’s hands are tied by dystopian laws - this is what “pro life” looks like.
These are becoming way more common the more we let this right wing evil shit sink in.
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Right, I don’t disagree with you, but there is no legal ground on which to sue the hospital. They acted as they were legally required, the law will be on their side. I’d say go after the politicians involved for wrongful death, if it weren’t for qualified immunity.
Honestly, I just hope anyone able and willing to leave such shithole states are able to do so, although that’s obviously much easier than done. Their leadership has clearly failed them and does not care about them. :(
I’m sorry but humans refusing to save the life of another human because of an obtuse law is unconscionable. They should have done what needed to be done and let the lawyers sort it out later.
It’s absolutely unconscionable, but it’s a medical (and very stupid/unnecessary) version of the trolley problem.
You’re a doctor. The tracks going one way have a single patient that you can treat and save. The tracks going the other way have every patient you’d get to see over the entirety of the rest of your career - literally thousands of people.
Treat the one and risk an avalanche of legal problems to include losing your license; the literal thousands of people are now fucked. Skip the one under the legal microscope, and she’s for-sure fucked, but your license lives to serve another day.
It’s fucked up. It’s evil. It’s what pro-life gets us.
You cannot expect a doctor to risk their freedom over a single patient. It’s like societal-level triage.
You can expect your lawmakers to not craft the world you live in into a dystopian hellscape… when they fail to live up to that expectation, don’t direct your anger at the people they’ve put into a bind; bring it directly to the lawmakers.
By who, the state of Texas? This is what they want to happen.
The hospital was following Texas law. Any doctor who helped her would have been arrested.
“I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant: I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow. I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism. I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon’s knife or the chemist’s drug. I will not be ashamed to say “I know not,” nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient’s recovery. I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God. I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person’s family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick. I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure. I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm. If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.”
Instead of blaming doctors for not martyring themselves for the Hippocratic oath, we should be putting the blame on the lawmakers that created this scenario to begin with.
Greg Abbott and Donald Trump should be sued for maliciously causing death.
Leaving Children without a Mother while also killing the Fetus is called being PRO LIFE and PROTECTING THE CHILDREN!
What the actual fuck. This is horrendous.
Pro-life crowd, I thought you were supposed to keep life, not end it.
Now there’s a man who’s a widow, a child without a mother, and a lady who died all for literally nothing.
Fuckin’ hell.
Hurting women is part of the platform. This is not even an ‘unintended’ consequence.
It’s 2024. What the fuck america
Don’t blame America for this. Most of us want legal, safe abortion laws. It’s a disgruntled minority of hyper-religious whack jobs that have been handed outrageous power in our top court by a narcissistic sociopath that are to blame.
Evangelicals Christians = American Taliban.
yeh agreed! but might be a bit complicated. possibly the dumbest thing i’ve ever written down is that I’m into some cool bands,
