I wish Valve would make a Steam Phone. They seem to know how to do Linux devices.
Valve laptop to revive the thinkpad glory days
they don’t know to make a good android app, and you want them to make an entire cellphone💀💀
Well, I don’t want it to be android powered anyways. That’s the entire point.
Hell, I think even Raspberry Pi Foundation getting into the phone market would be a game changer too.
A lot of the libcamera work done on Raspberry Pi boards is going towards improving the camera support on linux phones like the PinePhone, which is great!
Aside from that, sadly a lot of people (including myself) are kind of fed up with Raspberry Pi, after they essentially abandoned their mission during Covid to please corporations, and are preparing to go public despite being a “charity”. Broadcom, their SoC supplier, also has left a sour taste in my mouth after their purchase and mass layoffs at VMWare.
If they created a phone it would likely end up being scalped to death, and maybe pretty pricey compared to a PinePhone
Aside from that, sadly a lot of people (including myself) are kind of fed up with Raspberry Pi, after they essentially abandoned their mission during Covid to please corporations
Just out of curiosity, could you state what you think their mission was?
(I’m just wondering if anybody even remembers their original original mission.)
AFAIK their original mission was along the lines of making computers accessible at a low price point, particularly targeting the education sector in parts of the world where computers weren’t very accessible or affordable. Comparable to the OLPC, but not on an individual basis
I could be wrong though
Remember when they donated one pi for every one sold?
I appreciate the people who daily drive pinephones. They are paving the way for when they’ll be viable alternatives for the masses. (Or verifying that they won’t be, we’ll see.)
Everyone saying Android is completely missing the point. I mean yeah, it runs the linux kernel, but i feel like most of yall wouldn’t call ChromeOS linux on the other hand.
The obvious connotations are privacy, choice, wayland/x11 support, a useful terminal, a rich foss ecosystem, and arch btw.
ChromeOS is Linux and even starting to become it’s own full blown distro.
ChromeOS even uses Wayland now.
LacrosI’d agree with you in the context of standard (google) android.
One caveat that I’d like to highlight, though, is that for me GrapheneOS and F-Droid handily achieve the privacy and rich FOSS ecosystem parts. Useful terminal depends on your definition :) but for my use case Termux fills the void.
It doesn’t feel like Linux (you can’t even use Wifi and Ethernet at the same time for crying out loud) but for a relatively cheap low-power device, I like the flexibility.
It’s far enough from being a foot gun that I can give a Pixel 5 with GrapheneOS and some F-Droid apps to my grandmother and know she’ll have no problems. Balancing that with having enough extensibility to scratch the itch for 99% of tinkerers is a feat to appreciate in my view.
I’ve been daily driving Ubuntu Touch on the Fairphone 4 for over a year. I love it, even if some features are lacking. Calling and text is stable, but unfortunately Volte support is still missing. Waydroid is also working great.
it’s a fun toy, not super useful but probably fun to tinker with
I’ve done some ungodly stuff to my android phones (even non-rooted ones, I’m totally abusing them) and I can’t even imagine all the possibilities with a proper linux distro. Having a pocket pc with a full arm64 linux sounds awesomeLinux phones will need to run established Android apps to get users, devs won’t move where there is no users, users won’t move there if there aren’t apps. It’s almost cyclical
Right now we’re working with people who are exceptions to this, users who want to experiment and devs who don’t care about money.
Waydroid runs decently on the pinephone. On a phone with better specs, it might be downright usable for proprietary apps.
Potentially a proton-style layer could really ease transition, like on the steamdeck
BlackBerry 10 was actually a pretty slick OS that supported Android apps and you could even side-load Google Play services.
Agreed. Classic story that has been repeated several times over the years. Ecosystem is everything.
Microsoft’s Windows phones were fantastic. They had super nice hardware, high refresh rate screens, better cameras on their flagship models than iPhones at the time.
They were sleek, fast, the Windows tile UI actually worked great on a phone touchscreen. But it didn’t matter to most consumers because they didn’t have apps. MS had their own business apps…and that was about it. Didn’t matter that every other aspect of the phones were great, people couldn’t do what they wanted to on the Windows phones, so they didn’t buy them.
I would love to see something like Proton but for .apks instead of Windows executables. If it were as easy to install and run android apps on a mobile Linux OS as it is now to install and play Windows games on Linux, we would be in a great place to see a proper Linux phone.
GNU/Linux is not aimed at people who want the most features. It’s made for people who value freedom above everything else.
I would love to see something like Proton but for .apks instead of Windows executables. If it were as easy to install and run android apps on a mobile Linux OS as it is now to install and play Windows games on Linux, we would be in a great place to see a proper Linux phone.
You mean Waydroid? I’ve read that it works pretty well.
Progressive Web Apps. Web programs broke the need for Microsoft Windows.
We need proton for Android apps
We have Waydroid which is close enough. It needs some quality of life improvements for better integration with the native Linux ecosystem but it runs Android apps just fine on Linux phones.
Daily drivin Manjaro (Plasma mobile) on my Pinephone Pro for over a year now. If you are not into the whole “taking pictures all the time” thing you can easiy use it as a daily driver. (This message was typed on it)
What do you use to browse Lemmy?
The voyager PWA. Works really great and feels pretty much like a native app
So you use Chromium on there? Or how do you use PWAs?
Plasma mobile comes with the anglefish browser as default (a mobile browser based on chromium) that has support for PWAs
Cool! Thats really interesting as not even damn Firefox has that
At least on Android, Firefox (Mobile) does support PWAs. I use it for accessing my Iceshrimp account on fedia.social.
True, forgot about that, of course it does.
I respond to you just because yours is the last of the “I daily drive a PinePhone” comments, but this is meant for everyone with the same opinion.
Do you, in all honesty, feel comfortable enough with your device that you would confidently run a business solely through it?
I’m not an influencer, so my job isn’t “taking pictures all the time”, but still I wouldn’t rely on a Linux phone to run my business because I cannot risk:- to miss a phone call, a text or an email;
- to run out of battery if I’m outside my office all day long;
- to have a faulty GPS should I use a navigator to meet a client;
- that Bluetooth disconnects mid-call for the 5th time in a day while I’m driving;
- that I have to take a picture to collect information and the latest update borked the camera.
All of these things happen frequently on a Linux phone, and if you have a job where you can live through it good for you, I envy you TBH.
On the other hand, keep in mind that it’s not just the “Instagram people” that need a reliable device.Of course, everyone has different requirements on their phone, so the question if one would be comfortable running their buisness of a pine phone is quite divers.
Phone calls, texts and E-Mails
Text and E-Mails pretty much work as well as on every other phone. Phone calls work too, but the audio quality is below what one could expect from a modern iPhone.
Battery
While the battery runtime of one battery is definitely lower compared to competing devices, it is also replaceable. I usually spend my day in the office were the phone can be charged, so the battery life does not become an issue. When I am traveling I bring some extra batteries. The form factor is commonly available and batteries cost around 10 €, so I got 4 of them, which last me for ~36 hours until I have to charge them. I have so far never spend more time away from an outlet.
GPS
Works nowadays pretty reliable, accuracy of around 20 m is also good enough to find were I need to go
Bluetooth
Definitely not perfect but random disconnects happen rarely. On the other side I have an headphone jack, which always works reliably
Camera
Ok, this point goes to you, the camera is not usable. When taking pictures of documents I usually have to use my tablet.
So now to the overarching question:
Do you, in all honesty, feel comfortable enough with your device that you would confidently run a business solely through it? No, I would not feel comfortable to run a business through a phone, I need a real computer for my work. If I could only use a phone I would choose the pine phone, because at least it can run all software I require for my daily work. Connected to keyboard, mouse and a monitor it could be a slow, but acceptable work machine I can certainly imagine that there are jobs, which rely more heavily on a phone. But in these cases one should have separate work and private phones anyway
So what you’re saying to me is you can daily drive a Linux phone if you also daily drive a power bank, a bluetooth or wired headset and a camera?
I dont need the power bank, since I can simply swap bateries. But in principle yes
How dare they daily drive a beta Linux phone and share their experiences.
I couldn’t run a business on any phone, frankly. That’s what computers are for.
Also the GPS worked fine for me.
Let me guess, Manjaro or another unstable distro is where things broke for you? Mobian did not break things on update, much like Debian on desktop. I know the person you replied to uses Manjaro, but if you want a stable experience you really shouldn’t.
And most people aren’t running a business, so there’s that.
I don’t deny that the user experience isn’t great, it is development/early adopter hardware, but it’s definitely usable as a daily driver.
It depends by what job you have: a plumber, for example, could probably run their business entirely with their phone.
But we’re missing the point, I’m not saying a smartphone can replace a PC, whether it be Linux, iOS or Android. I’m saying that If you need to do all the tasks that are required by a “modern day job” and you need to do them well, then I’m sorry (I really am) but Linux phones aren’t ready yet.And most people aren’t running a business, so there’s that.
Most people don’t have the skill to troubleshoot a Linux phone, why don’t we count them too in the statistics?
Then, I used “running a business” as just an example to indicate the “urgency of a functioning phone” for whatever reason: it might just be that you have a relative you have to take care of, or that you are a doctor/nurse that can be contacted on every moment, or that you’re an a job hunt and cannot miss the call… I can go on for hours on why in A.D. 2024 a person from whichever social context cannot afford to be off the gridMost people don’t have the skill to troubleshoot a Linux phone, why don’t we count them too in the statistics?
This community is called linuxmemes. You are talking to GNU/Linux users here. For everyone else it’s going to be hard, obviously. It takes time to learn to use a completely different operating system.
I have a PinePhone. ama
Phosh, gnome-mobile, plasma, sxmo or “unity”?
Plasma and unity both seem to be the ones I come back to. The other three I would mess with, but something about the other two always brought me back.
Phosh is pretty good. I don’t think Gnome Mobile is finished yet.
What do you miss the most?
Getting laid
How much did it cost, how long have you had it and what are the most obvious pros and cons?
In the US store it costs 200$ for the original PinePhone and 400$ for the Pro version. The EU store is a little more expensive.
I’m not the person you asked, but I’ve had mine for 2 years.
Pros:
- free software and freedom (and with that increased privacy and security)
- runs the same software that you can run on desktop as long as it has an ARM build (a lot of Debian packages do) or you compile it yourself - this includes not just apps, but also terminal programs and servers
- killswitch to power off the proprietary modem for when you don’t want phone carrier tracking you
- like in other modern phones the modem is isolated (here it’s connected over USB)
- multiple distros to choose from
- multiple desktop environments to choose from
- replacable battery
- headphone jack
- replacement parts available in case you break something
- there are some interesting addons that you can buy (https://pine64.org/devices/pinephone/#accessories)
- microSD card slot
- you can boot from the microSD card, so distro hopping is easy
- can run Android apps through Waydroid
Cons:
- slow - you are running modern software on an old SoC (the Pro version is faster, but still slow compared to modern phones)
- not all GNU/Linux apps have a responsive UI that works well on mobile
- some old apps might not have touch support
- short battery life - the SoC is not very energy efficient. Possible workarounds: get the keyboard addon with builtin battery (but it makes the phone bigger and heavier), carry spare batteries with you, or buy/3D print a bigger case and use a bigger battery
- runs hot
- GPS isn’t super accurate
- audio quality during phone calls isn’t great
- the non-pro version might not be able to run a mainline kernel, so you might not be able to install a desktop distro on it
- the Pro version should be able to run a mainline kernel, but there might be things that don’t work
- experience with GNU/Linux is required
- sometimes workarounds are needed - for me, on Mobian stable sometimes the modem or wifi don’t wake up from suspend and I have to reset it with a script (I added it to the apps menu for quick access, but it’s still annoying)
- [on original PinePhone] bad camera and the default app can only take pictures - there is a script for recording video, but then there is no preview
- I’m not sure if you can use the camera as a webcam in most software
- [might depend on the model] video playback is not GPU accelerated, so it makes the CPU hot and drains battery and you might be limited to 1080p@30fps or 720p
- you can run a stable distro with old software and old bugs (and sometimes things change very fast) or a less stable one with current software, but then things will sometimes break after update and you will have to fix it (probably more than on desktop)
- on Mobian stable (old software) the proximity sensor acts weird during a call and sometimes you can’t see the screen
- no Xbox gamepad support in Mobian stable (but Playstation gamepads work)
- they keyboard addon isn’t perfect and requires some setup
- with the keyboard addon I can’t plug in any USB devices to the phone and I don’t know why - charging works though
- support for emergency broadcast is only just now being introduced in Phosh (https://phosh.mobi/posts/cellbroadcast)
- [original PinePhone] uses micro SIM standard instead of nano SIM
- sometimes there is screen flickering in non-pro version
- killswitches could be a bit easier to flip (they are very small)
- [on original PinePhone] poor 3D performance (even SuperTuxKart doesn’t run smoothly), WebGL doesn’t seem to work (at least for 3D)
- not a lot of RAM, so you can’t run too many apps at once or have too many browser tabs open - you can still run Electron apps, though (just not too many at once)
- no push notifications, so if you want to be notified when you get a message in some app, while the phone is suspended, you would have to setup a script to wake the phone up periodically
Edit: I corrected a mistake with the SIM card. I turns out that PinePhone Pro uses nano SIM and it’s only the original PinePhone that uses micro SIM
Between October 2018 to April 2023 I used as my daily drivers a series of phones (OnePlus One, Meizu Pro 5, Volla Phone, Xiaomi Redmi Note 9 Pro) all flashed to running Ubuntu Touch. During this time UT (Ubuntu Touch) was less developed than it is now, in that Waydroid (which allows using some Android apps over a Lineage OS container that boots on top of UT) did not yet exist, and Libertine (which allows some Linux desktop apps built for Ubuntu arm64 deb to be installed) was not as functional. And yet is still worked great for my modest needs (e.g. I don’t do banking, or any kind of more advanced gaming, on my phones).
The reason I reverted last year to de-googled Android (“vanilla” Bliss ROM on a Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro) is that being in the USA, the carriers here have closed or are closing down all their 3G/2G networks, and requiring VoLTE for phone calls. While UT supports LTE for mobile data without a problem, given that VoLTE is a proprietary closed protocol with implementation varying between carrier, oem and device, the only device which UT currently has VoLTE support for (and which is still shaky) is the PinePhone Pro.
Anyhoo - the UT dev community is pretty small, but definitely dedicated, and still offers some promise into the future for a nice privacy respecting alternative OS for mobile devices and tablets. Hopefully at some point VoLTE, and a few other issues gets figured out for it so I can return to using it for my daily driver - in the meantime I’ve got it on a OnePlus 5t as a secondary device, and on a Lenovo x306f 10" tablet.
the only device which Ubuntu Touch currently has VoLTE support for (and which is still shaky) is the PinePhone Pro.
I’m incredulous that this is the case. You’re probably right but there’s no way in hell I’m using a phone restricted to 2g or 3g.
I am talking about VoLTE (Voice over LTE) which is the protocol just for making phone calls over 4g networks - NOT 4g/LTE mobile data! Ubuntu Touch has worked well with 4g/LTE mobile data for 10 years now.
The loss of Dalton Durst from that team from burnout was a big hit. They’ve been doing work on it but I haven’t seen anything approaching the output they had when he was heading it up.
Dalton is an amazing and very cool guy, and when he left it was indeed a big hit to dev speed at first, but recently a few super smart and dedicated guys have been able to do a big jump in updating the base from 16.04 to 20.04 (which involved moving from upstart to systemd) and they are getting close to rebasing to 24.04 (target for this is this June in fact). Plus Waydroid support has gotten really good in the time since Dalton moved on, and snap support is getting worked on now as well.
…are we ignoring android?
Yes. When people talk about a Linux phone, they mean a Linux like experience where the user is in charge and there is no data harvesting or other shitfuckery. That’s not something any Android phone delivers out of the box.
Okay look I get what we’re trying to say here but would it be problematic if I pointed out that Android is also running Linux?
See, this is why, yet again, Stallman was right: insisting on “GNU/Linux” is necessary in order to disambiguate between the fully-Free Software OS and bastardized half-proprietary stuff like Android.
It’s a valid point, but unfortunately your non bullshit options are limited to replacing the OS with something like Graphene or Lineage.
The powers that be REALLY want your data.
Isn’t that like claiming all Linux, Android and MacOS are just UNIX?
GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU’s Not Unix!”,[6][12] chosen because GNU’s design is Unix-like, but differs from Unix by being free software and containing no Unix code.[6][13][14] Stallman chose the name by using various plays on words, including the song The Gnu.[4]: 45:30
Who’s gonna tell him Android is based on Linux ?
Android is Linux, they literally use the Linux kernel. They replace most other stuff, but Linux it is.
They even work towards mainline kernel support, making updates easier for longer times.
Android is a good example, why “Linux” is not a good term for “Desktop Gnu+Linux”.
I think they use some very old and heavily modified version of the Linux kernel, so it’s not the same Linux kernel we use on desktop. Then each phone manufacturer adds custom patches on top to support their hardware. GNU/Linux phones also require a custom kernel, but the community is working on upstreaming those patches, so that they can run mainline kernel some day (PinePhone Pro and Librem 5 probably already can now, but some stuff might not work).
Yeah, using the name Linux for both the kernel and the operating system makes no sense and it’s super confusing. When people say Linux when talking about the operating system, they almost always mean GNU/Linux (like Linux Mint, Arch Linux, etc). But then there is Alpine Linux, which isn’t GNU/Linux and that makes things even more confusing. If I didn’t know what Alpine Linux or Arch Linux was (and had no knowledge of distro names), based on their name I would assume they are some kind of fork of the Linux kernel. Arch Linux should have really been called Arch GNU/Linux and Alpine Linux should have just been called Alpine OS.
They use the current LTS kernel that exists when the phone exists. If your phone has an outdated kernel (mine had one too, and I thought the same) it is simply really outdated.
Yeah the problem lies in the many Distros I think. The BSDs are all different bundles, not like Linux+Gnu+Systemd+pipewire+wayland+glibc and some minor differences. FreeBSD is actually different from OpenBSD for example. Then Android is also a single project, just like this “modern desktop linux bundle”.
Nobody because everybody knows this. Android is still not what people mean when they say linux
Uhhh it definitely is. I literally have a Linux terminal running on my Android phone.
No you’re using Termux with bash. Unless you’re actually interfacing with the kernel directly in which case ignore me and carry on.
Anyways this is a great example of why “Linux” as the name of the OS is stupid. GNU/Linux is better (for GNU-based, obviously, don’t go wheeling out the Alpine copypasta because I’m not talking about that).
