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The reality is that, although there are quite a few standalone Wayland compositors, you don’t hear about most of them, because almost all of them suck in one way or another if you go beyond opening terminals.
Ah, classic Vaxry. I’m sure he would love it if his compositor was the only one.
I lost interest after that.
Yeah, that sounds like the age old “why so many desktops (or other apps)” debate. Because we can. Because doing new things is fun. Because this isn’t all about being effective and capitalist logic.
Oh lit so you wrote up your own compositor?
I think you and the bcachefs owner would be very good friends.
What is going on here?
Linus Torvalds and Kent Overstreet (the main developer of bcachefs) often argued on the Linux mailing list over adherence to long-standing practices when submitting pull requests. In the latest confrontation, Kent dropped this absolute clown shoes response:
If you’re so convinced you know best, I invite you to start writing your own filesystem. Go for it.
Narrated by Aussie Waylandman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07XjCGQpwpw&t=869s. I recommend watching the entire video, it’s very entertaining.
Nope. Have you?
I’m not the one going around making statements that imply reliable wayland compositors can just be readily whipped up and shipped out.
You can complain about the guy’s ego if you feel like he’s talking up his product too much, but if you’re going to reject valid statements he’s making under the assumption that they’re all self-motivated and therefore incorrect, then you should be able to justify the position.
They did not imply that at all
I knew that’s where you were going. I knew it.
I said nothing of the sort about the validity of his statements. I did not engage in an ad hominem (i.e. Vaxry is an asshole, therefore he’s wrong). I did not imply that it was easy to make a compositor. You were the one that read all those things into my statement and took umbrage on his behalf.
I implied it sounded like complaining, specifically about other people simply existing and having hobbies that intersect with his own. If his opening salvo is “almost all the other compositors suck beyond opening terminal windows,” on a blog post titled, “We don’t need more Wayland compositors,” I’m not required to be interested in what sounds like hyperbolic criticism.
And since that choice is based on my entirely subjective assessment, I’m not required to justify shit.
I understand your perspective but at the end of the day all you’re doing is justifying why you should be able to disregard this guy’s blog post under the premise that he comes off as someone who’s full of himself.
At the end of the day vaxray’s ability to state that “almost all the other compositors suck beyond opening terminal windows” should be tied to whether or not the statement is true/justifiable; it shouldn’t be tied to whether or not people can’t stand the optics of it.
You seem to be under the impression that I’m obligated to take every claim and see if it’s backed up by evidence.
I’m not, and I don’t feel any compulsion to find out if Vaxry has made rational claims or not. That’s the beauty of using subjective reasoning; it’s not reasonable for anyone but the subject (me).
Be my guest and see if he’s justified. Tell other people. I stopped caring what he has to say here the minute I read that paragraph, and I choose not to hear him out any further either way.
I’m not sure if that’s how posting things to the public works. Optics will always be a part of that.
- Get kicked from freedesktop for fostering a toxic community.
- Ditch wlroots for your own compositor.
- Shit on other compositors in your spare time.
- Tell people they should just be plugging into Hyprland instead of rolling their own compositor.
Man if I was concerned about sinking the time to make a configuration for the compositor with a bus factor of 1 man-child, and a toxic community; I can’t imagine anybody investing the time to make a compositor is going to want to hitch themselves to that cart.
The compositor is really solid and makes for a great user experience but I’ll be fucked if every word vaxry writes doesn’t make me want to move to sway or niri.
You can just chose not to read his blogs. I checked the discord recently for some help defining window size for mpv and it was pretty good. No general chats, strictly topic abiding channels and nice folk that either share the wiki part or the code that helped me.
The discord does have a general chat, as well as a memes chat.
Oh seems like it, most probably added recently? Idk. Looks like varxy really wants attention from somewhere. Tbh opening a discord for foss projects is so troll. I also joined their matrix but it’s deserted.
Afaik it was there when I joined over a year ago. Discord hides some channels by default now when you join a server, that could be it. It is always a shame when a FOSS project uses Discord more than Matrix, makes me way less likely to interact with the community.
Exactly, politics vs. doing software.
While some of the arguments are true, this blog post mainly reads like an ad for hyperland and it propably is just that.
Dude’s shilling for his own compositor backend right after ditching wlroots. He has zero credibility in this matter.
Oh no, he’s shilling his own project after transitioning to a different technology.
Do you even hear yourself? I think you should stick with “He’s a biggot” type of comments, because this just makes you look stupid.
Says the man who made one lol. I am still using hyprland because the sad thing is i like it but im trying to switch to something that is not made by a transphobe… what do yall recommend?
I have been really happy with sway. It does all that I want it to do.
Sway is my safe option. I will check out what kind of rices people cooked up with it and maybe i see somethig nice i can copy.
There is also SwayFX if you go with Sway and want (a little) more customization.
I’m a big fan of niri, which is a scrolling tiling compositor. I always had a soft spot for tiling wms/compositors, but couldn’t stick with any of them for long until I tried niri, and wholeheartedly embraced the scrolling tiling world.
Very friendly upstream & community, and written in a modern language, too.
I dont think ill like scrolling tiling but you never know so ill try. At first i thought tiling was stupid and now look i feel like im digitally dissabled when i use a pure floating system.
If touchpad gestures work, I’m putting that on my macbook air. That looks so comfortable.
It does support a number of gestures, yeah. Can’t comment on how well they work, because I do not use a touchpad. But if the quality of the rest of the compositor is any indication, they should work really darn well.
river, its by far the nicest to configure and use
river is awesome, and I like it even beyond bspwm.
Unfortunately bspwm is better. Binary separation allowed for just about any layout imaginable, but river does not.
river has community layouts and I’m currently using bsp-layout, it’s not the same as bspwm but somewhat similar. Also the developer of river is working on to separate the window management which will allow basically anything related to layouts.
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Cosmic-comp is my second favorite after hyprland so far due to their tiling being quite well thought-out. The problem is, it’s part of a DE and is somewhat cumbersome to configure as a standalone compositor (can be fixed by patching libcosmic, tho), and also it’s quite bare-bones when it comes to features.
Then there’s pinnacle which looks promising, but I haven’t yet tried to daily-drive it.
Also, maybe qtile, which has a Wayland back-end.
Qtile was my first daily driver tiling WM. It was a pain in the ass to install, but it’s damn near as extensible as DWM (since the config file is literally a python program). The only thing I hate about it is that you can’t reposition windows in the tiling layout by drag-and-drop.
Ill try out your suggestions. Ive thought about using cosmic but its alpha and it will have a bunch of stuff i wont use probably.
Whoa - hyprland is made by a transphobe?
Edit: whoa it really is. I joined their discord and saw like, very strict anti-lgbtqphobic rules and thought that they must be good. But looking into him… Turns out the rules are there because he’d let it fester into a 4chan toxic hellhole
You’ve gotten good responses already, but I just live and let live with Gnome’s Mutter & KDE’s Kwin. It’s worth mentioning that they’re both highly polished offerings. But I would also understand why one wouldn’t want to use either.
I love KDE and use it as my daily driver, but talking strictly about the tilling experience, it just ain’t it.
I’ve tried both Polonium and a updated fork of Kröhnkite for Plasma 6, and neither them were as nice as Hyprland…
Vaxry who got banned from Freedesktop for being an asshat? https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
I don’t exactly consider Drew Devault a reliable or unbiased judge of character
Can you elaborate. I never heard about this.
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Good thing that’s not what happened then. They banned him for violating their code of conduct, which is completely valid of them.
The reality is that, although there are quite a few standalone Wayland compositors, you don’t hear about most of them, because almost all of them suck in one way or another if you go beyond opening terminals.
Oh, fuck off! I can barely use Blender because dragging a spinner control does something with the cursor that makes Hyprland shit its pants. It’s been fixed and broken several times. May or may not be related: Vaxry has expressed his disdain for Blender in issue notes. (edit) found it: https://github.com/hyprwm/Hyprland/issues/3270
(edit2) I should also mention that Hyprland is the only compositor where this happens. KDE Plasma, Qtile-wayland, Sway, Wayfire are all fine.
Oh come on! First, you hate on COSMIC for taking away some of the noob user base, now you hate on other compositors for taking some of your other user base.
Why can’t you be happy that there are other projects in this space? Why can’t you just be happy that people are now more likely to find a project which works for them? Is it because your own project is losing users, now that people are no longer trapped to it, because it’s no longer the only good project in the space?
Even Brodie admitted that you’re not completely right on many of your takes, so why not focus on what you’re good at, aka writing a Wayland compositor?
Edit: It seems that I should have read the article. He talks about things from a different point of view, but if you’re looking to write a proper Wayland “window manager”, there is only one real choice and it’s not Hyprland, it’s the upcoming River 0.4.0 which will use a custom protocol, based on the layout managers that River was already made for. Basically the dev, Isaac, is moving as much of the window management into the “layout manager” protocol to turn River into a base for writing your own Window manager.
It’s one of the main project releases I’m the most excited about in the Linux space.
If this guy could focus on what he’s good at and keep his damn mouth shut he wouldn’t be in this situation.
Agreed.
The reality is that, although there are quite a few standalone Wayland compositors, you don’t hear about most of them, because almost all of them suck in one way or another if you go beyond opening terminals.
For standalone desktops, Hyprland is undeniably your best base at the moment to write a window manager.
If you don’t believe it, see some amazing WM plugins for Hyprland on Github,
Your favorite tiling WM doesn’t have a Wayland port? Pick up the initiative yourself and write a Hyprland plugin that makes it behave like your WM of choice.
Said the person who maintains Hyprland. This post reads like an ad for his own project.
Isn’t this the toxic dev, who dislikes any other Wayland Compositors? This guy is also banned from contributing to Freedesktop here and here. And here is a post from Drew Hyprland is a toxic community.
I’m not surprised about this blog post. I argue we need more compositors. More means, more to choose from and being less reliant on the few that are available right now. What if someone does not like Hyprland in example or any of the current available compositors? Having more to choose from is a good thing, not bad. I’m so thankful that Hyprland is not the only one we have. One example is the programming language that the project is written in. Why does it matter? Maybe because people want to contribute or understand the code or want to make changes. In example Qtile is written in Python and its configuration language is in Python too.
Lol fuck this guy
For standalone desktops, Hyprland is undeniably your best base at the moment to write a window manager.
Well, it took him more than 2/3 of the post to mention hyprland, so I’ll give him props for that.
Click baity title aside. This is actually pretty much pretty true. What the vast majority of people want when they’re writing their own composers seems to be specifically the custom window management aspects.
And it is true that even with something like Wlroots or a Smithay, it is a lot of works right your own composer and have it be “competitive”. And he is right. There are a lot of composers out there that are just not usable for anything more than the basics. And there are tons more which are just toys that have been abandoned that aren’t really usable. That being said we saw a lot of that with window managers, But yes, writing a compositor is a lot more then writing a window manager.
I personally don’t use hyperland, but I can see the point he’s trying to make, and I think it’s a rather good point. I think if we had more compositors that focused on having a scriptable window management, then that would be for the better.
I don’t really see this as toxic either. I mean, if it’s toxic to call a composite or trash in one way or another, then I would argue that 90% of the Linux community is far more toxic than he is. It’s just a matter of truth. Wayland is a big complicated thing with a lot of protocols and some of it is poorly documented.
And of course, this is him shilling his own composter. It’s his own composter, and this is the blog about him making his own composter. Of course he’s gonna put a post on it, shilling his own compositor.
That being said, As I said earlier, I would like to see a more scriptable take for things like window management. I don’t think hyprland has to be unique in this aspect, but as it stands, it most definitely is.
pardon my weird language, its hard to use STT.
I don’t think Hyprland has to be unique… but as it stands, it most definitely is.
It isn’t. River 0.4.0 will be turning River into a base to build your own window manager, taking it much further than Hyprland ever could, with a custom protocol, etc.
I’ll try it out for sure. Last time what tried river it was fairly basic. So if it’s come a long way that’s quite exciting.
It isn’t that yet. It will be when 0.4.0 releases, which will probably not be in 2024.
Vaxry is a fascist asshat, and this is just them plugging their own work.
I didn’t read it yet but just from the title I’ma disagree. I loved all the creative me for xorg over the years and hope to see it in Wayland even more.
Will update after I read it
Btw, is there one for touchscreen notebooks/tablets yet?
There was one, paper-something, but i think it’s abandoned now?
