- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
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Is article mixing things or am I missing something?
You don’t need to hand over your phone to present a digital ID. At least in my country the digital ID just creates a qr that the cop can scan to verify. There is no reason to hand over anything on the whole process.
Brazil? I do miss being able to leave home bringing only my phone because my ID and cards are all there
I’m also from Brazil. I chose to refuse any digital IDs: for example, my CNH (for non-brazilians: it’s our driver’s license) is physical and I used a dumbphone (Multilaser Zapp) to justify to the bureau that I can’t have apps for digital IDs (I kinda could within my other device, a smartphone, but I lied having only Multilaser as device). They can’t force people to have digital IDs, yet. Not everyone has a smartphone, it’s common in Brazil for a house/family/community to have multiple people using one single smartphone, digital IDs won’t be usable for this situation. It’s not my situation, I avoid to take my smartphone outside of home due to security concerns, so I take a dumbphone instead.
Digital IDs have multiple problems. What if the smartphone breaks? What if the smartphone has no battery when one needs to show one’s IDs? These were the factors that motivated me to refuse any digital IDs.
If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we’ve seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that’s been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I’d still trust fully off more but that’s easier to do covertly.
My country has made it illegal to not give your keys.
What county is this, so I know to avoid it?
Some European one.
A lot countries have this now.
Even for a number of countries where it’s not technically enshrined in law, police can still effectively do it anyway, by detaining you for as long as they like until you comply.
UK
Edit, source: https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/prosecuted-for-your-password/
Can’t I just say I forgot my pin? They can’t prove I don’t have a shit memory.
That only works if you’re rich
Classic quality Land
Good luck https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-25745989
You can use that argument but it will depend on if they believe you.
How can they prove guilt? Innocent until proven guilty under English common law, right?
Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
Additionally, with the Pixel 9 holding down the power button no longer turns it off, you have to press power and volume up at the same time to get to the power menu.
That can be changed in the settings
I had no idea… thank you! It’s always a crapshoot if I take a screenshot or get into the power settings. So bizarre.
power and volume down does screenshots
Power and Volume DOWN would make infinitely more sense for “power DOWN” function.
Holding the power button for 1 second also opens the menu.
Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
You can be polite and decline consent without resisting. “I do not consent to any searches or seizures”. If it’s taken from you illegally then anything they find is inadmissible in court. If it’s taken from you legally, ain’t shit you can do anyway.
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people’s heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
but black people are free practice targets to them
“what’s a phone?”
“I don’t know why my fingerprint isn’t working” (biometrics are disabled)
“I don’t remember my passcode” (it’s a pattern input field)
“The guy at the phone place changed it for me”
“It’s never really worked right.”
“There’s no Google on it tho.” (What does this even mean?)
“Who do you need to call anyway?”
“Can’t you just use your own phone?”
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you’re Black - get shot for “talking back”
Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn’t protected by local laws:
Ask if they have a warrant and if they don’t then take your phone oout and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you’re not handing over any devices.
If they seize it without a warrant then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion then you won’t have much luck.
in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog
FYI thats illegal (US vs. Rodriguez)
being arrested while they conduct their investigation
Detained*
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense
There’s nowhere in the US that is true without reasonable, articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio)
explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights.
You really don’t need to do that unless you’ve already started answering questions, but it is good practice.
Not something I expected to look up today Context
what is wrong with this world, wow.
Thank you!
Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I’m not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
Edit: Just want to say this mostly pretains to United States law and similar legal structures. This advice is not applicable everywhere and you should research your countries rights and legal protections.
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
A: It’s always shut the fuck up Friday.
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
Mobile youtube links, gross
Sounds like someone could use some more shut the fuck up Friday in their life 😘
Disable biometrics and mention your password.
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
To add to this, don’t use bio-metrics to lock your devices. Cops will “accidentally” use these to unlock devices when they are forcibly seized.
If you reboot your phone, the first unlock can’t use biometrics
You can also set it up so biometrics can be used by apps but not to unlock the phone. That way it’s easy to get to your apps and such but trivially more difficult to unlock.
Or just know how to enable lockdown mode. On iOS that’s 5 rapid clicks of the power button, screen on or off, and it vibrates to let you know you got it without looking. Dunno what it might be for android, or if it varies by model.
It ends up like a newly rebooted phone; requires a typed passcode. It also provides quick links to medical ID info and the sos emergency call thing. It may, if you have an ID set up, also have a link to that, but I don’t have that configured so not super sure.
(On Android five clicks on the lock screen makes an emergency call)
I personally rather trust that my device isn’t able to be unlocked without my permission, rather than hope I am able to do some action to disable it in certain situations. The availability of such features is nice, but I would assume I would be incapable of performing such actions in the moment.
My other thought is, how guilty is one perceived if they immediately attempt to lock their phones in such a matter, by a jury of their peers? I rather go the deniability route of I didn’t want to share my passcode vs I locked my phone down cause the cops were grabbing me.
For most phones, just rebooting it will drop it back to bio + passcode. That’s the quick method for me.
This will also put the device in the “before first unlock” state, which will make it harder to extract data, even with physical access. After first unlock some data might be accessed even without the passcode when connecting the phone to a computer
This is good to know, but adds an additional step to simply requiring a passcode to unlock on screen lock.
It’s also much more secure to reboot (and not unlock) it, should it be taken from you and potentially tried to be broken into or compromised in some way, usually to extract data and perform forensics. A phone that has been unlocked is weaker with protection than one which has been restarted and awaiting first unlock.
But… “Apple bad!”
Yes, Apple is bad. They are a tax-dodging multi-trillion-dollar company. They are not good. They are not your friend.
Android phones have this feature as well btw lol
Google IS your friend?
Reminder: If you are in a situation where you’re presenting a digital ID to a digital ID reader, do not unlock your phone first. Tap your locked phone on the ID reader, then authenticate the document share.
Duh.
I’m a cop and I can tell you that, at least in my country, you’d have no reason to not unlock your phone if you haven’t done anything.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
Also don’t take advices from what you see on Lemmy as every user comes from a different country with different laws.
In my country, we can take your phone but we aren’t allowed to unlock it without your consent or without a prosecutor saying so.
Man, fuck that.
It’s none of your business what’s on our phones, period.
You want access? Go through due process.
The very fact that you led off with “you’re fine if you have nothing to hide” makes you the problem, you personally, not anyone else around you, you.
Doesn’t matter what country you’re in at all. Doesn’t even matter what the law says in this case, because crappy laws exist.
That kind of thinking is exactly why people don’t trust cops.
Would it be fair to summarize your point as “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear”?
I don’t know why your getting downvoted and have replies with ACAB…
Keep in mind I come at this from an American perspective.
I do have to disagree with the first paragraph. You do not need to access to or to search my phone to perform your job. If the phone becomes part of a criminal investigation then ideally a warrant would be put out by a judge and a Computer Forensics team would take it from there.
At least in the USA, the bad perception of cops is not just because of their apparent lack of accountability and ability to get away with murder, but also how expansive the scope of their duties are. So much authority intrusted in one person clearly seems to go to their heads more often than not here.
I understand in many European countries the scope of a cops duties is much more restricted. I know Britian doesn’t even provide their law enforcement with firearms.
Cops are garbage
How exactly is an individual supposed to determine which cops will be good and which will abuse their power?
Just as we can’t make a general statement that all cops are definitely bad, you can’t make a general statement that all cops in any particular country or town will be good.
From a basic risk management viewpoint, it doesn’t make sense for anyone to accept the risk that any given cop won’t abuse their position, even if we were willing to accept that very few would actually do so.
Cops have an extremely privileged status in society and the amount of damage that a bad one can do to an individual - on purpose or even by accident - is incalculable, including setting up an innocent person for capital punishment as we’re seeing unfold in Missouri right now.
Well said!
I agree with you, you can’t know for sure that you’re with a good or bad cop.
But you also have to comply with laws if you don’t want to get in trouble.
I can only answer for my country and I can tell you that here you’re gonna waste way less time if you show what’s in your phone and we can see that you’re innocent.
The time not wasted there might also be used to catch the person who’s really guilty.
I’ll just give you an example even if it’s not reated to unlocking phones: A black BMW 335i is filmed hitting a pedestrian and the plate number finishes with a 5. We’re gonna need to have a look at every BMW within these parameters. If you prevent the police from checking your car by hiding it, a guilty guy might have more time to hide his car and a crime is gonna go unpunished, leaving a victim with no one to pay for his injuries.
Of course, that reality might be different elsewhere. It’s just that I have noticed that on Lemmy cops are only seen as bad guys when, in my case, I spend a lot of time helping people.
I’ll just give you an example even if it’s not reated to unlocking phones: A black BMW 335i is filmed hitting a pedestrian and the plate number finishes with a 5. We’re gonna need to have a look at every BMW within these parameters. If you prevent the police from checking your car by hiding it, a guilty guy might have more time to hide his car and a crime is gonna go unpunished, leaving a victim with no one to pay for his injuries.
And if my car was in an unrelated accident but just happened to fit those criteria, you could use that as evidence against me (and not only that, but then stop trying to solve the crime because you’ve assumed the perpetrator.) It ALWAYS goes both ways. If the only way you can solve a crime is by violating people’s privacy without a warrant, maybe don’t be a cop.
Cops are seen as bad guys because people like you argue for why rights shouldn’t apply to people, and making you get a warrant (aka doing your job) is seen as interfering with a crime.
The worst part is, it is stupidly easy to get warrants here in the US, but the cops WILL make your life miserable if you make them get one.
So you’re advocating for fewer civil rights (or at least for people not to exercise their civil rights) because it saves you time and money? Spoken like a true pig.
If someone from your family gets abducted and the police can ask your neighbors to cooperate and give information without everyone just using a right to remain silent or lie, I’m sure you would be happy with the time gained to help you find your family member.
Ill take 400 on “things that don’t actually happen” Ghost of Alex!!
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/kidnappings-per-country
You may want to consider in your made-up scenario the reason behind an entire neighbourhood refusing to give any information.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
ACAB, and you don’t get to compare your chosen profession to where people were born or the colour of their skin, nor try to claim victim points by pretending you are systemically oppressed and discriminated against in the same way we are (though your trying to does go to strengthen my first point).
Fuck you, pig.
ACAB piggly wiggly
No shit
I know this is obvious – but I also don’t want to have to purchase a printer to print out up to date proof of insurance.
My current plan is to just hand over the old/expired copy. Or I have to go through attempting to remember how to display a card from your Apple Wallet while it remains locked.
library will let you print a page for a dime
Most of the time you can go to the library and print it out there. My insurance company (Geico) will still send cards if i request them.
