My mom is in assisted living and I have a suspicion that the staff, or perhaps a resident, is taking her money. I need something that won’t look out of place and isn’t easily disabled, maybe it plays possum when unplugged but has battery backup. Anyone have any advice?
Just remember that if the staff find out that you apparently trust none of them and believe that they are - potentially - thieves there is a possibility that the level and quality of care your mother receives could diminish. Also, I assume you’ve checked the legality of filming this way in your jurisdiction.
I don’t think this is true. Most people in health and elder care would rather do their job than risk getting fired or sued because of a rude client.
I’m not suggesting for one second that the mother would have a negative care experience. I’m just stating the obvious that some people would no longer do those extra little things. I notice in some of the care homes I go to that some residents are called by name and some are referred to by room number. All of them have their needs met - just some are treated more compassionately and others are treated only professionally.
So no, they’re not getting all their needs met?
I’m not sure how you can come to that conclusion when it contradicts the actual words I wrote.
Working to rule vs working for people.
On the other hand it can lead to the nursing home ending the contract due to this - hidden surveillance of staff is definitely a reason to do so. They can also prohibit OP from entering the premises.
Yes. Absolutely. If someone questioned my staff’s honesty and DIDN’T BRING IT TO MY ATTENTION FIRST, I wouldn’t want them as customers.
And you don’t understand how they might worry that you’d be in on it, or that coming to you with no evidence might be fruitless?
If you have any suspicion of illegality and or impropriety that includes the management I would suggest that you nope your relative the fuck out of that home…
Yeah. It would be a crime in my jurisdiction anyway, but nevertheless basically every nursing home administration I worked with (and I have nursing homes in 7 countries as clients) would instantly react massively to a relative doing this.
We would advise them to ban the relative from entering the premises and then discuss if the contract should be cancelled. That very much depends on the individual circumstances - if it is a distant relative who is simply intrusive it’s a different story to a situation when the offender is the main contact for the client, also the expected remaining contract time (in other words how long a patient is expected to live) should be considered.In special circumstances (dying patient) supervised visits of said relative may be considered.
That seems completely reasonable. I, personally, would support such a stance from any care home. If you don’t trust us enough to broach a subject with us I wouldn’t want you as a client.
That seems completely reasonable.
It seems completely unreasonable to me. If a person wants a security camera in their home, they should be allowed to have one.
Thinking of that room as your staff’s workplace makes me wonder if you’ve forgotten it’s also someone’s home.
Yes, it is someone’s home… and in this specific incidence it is a third party trying to install a camera. There is nothing in the post that says the mother has requested to be filmed in her most intimate setting.
It is not their home. Period.
In your home you can also install a cooktop/hot plate, light a candle, paint the walls any colour you like. All of which you are not allowed to do in a nursing home.
And it is not the patient who wants the camera, it’s a relative. And even in your home a hidden camera that monitors a family members toilet/bathroom would be very much illegal in most jurisdictions,even more so if the family members may be unable to decide on that matter competently.
Additionally it is a workplace. For professionals. Tbh: In almost all industrial nations it’s far easier to find another client than find another carer. And due to all the causes I already mentioned in this topic almost all carers will be very uncomfortable with this situation - because,well they care about their clients a lot. And that also includes the dignity of their patients.
His mom is in assisted living, not a nursing home. My mom is also in assisted living. She’s got a stove in her apartment, she can cook her own meals if she wants to! Until recently, she could drive herself to Walmart if she felt like it. She has decorated her apartment in her own style because–get this–it’s her home!!
Plus he hasn’t said one thing about pointing a camera at his mother’s bathroom!
It is her home. How disheartening to see you think it isn’t.
It is simply an issue of humanity as well - nursing care is an immensely private issue for most people.
Not many adults would want to be filmed when he/she is getting their diapers changed after they soiled themselves accidentally. If you ask most older folks they don’t even want their kids/relatives to be doing that out of shame. Most wouldn’t want their kids/relatives to even be present. (Note: This is highly dependent on the culture, though, I can only speak for Western&Arab clients here)
Now imagine being the patient and not even knowing whether someone is watching. Besides - we often don’t know enough about the actual relationship between the kids and the client. I’ve seen old folks agree to a lot of shit simply because of pressure (“I won’t come and visit you anymore if you don’t sign this”), extortion (“I only bring the grandkids of you wire me amount XY”) or downright abuse.
The later is also an issue: There are perverts all around the net. I know of at least one instance when a hidden camera (in that case placed by nurse) was used to stream nursing situation to a fetish site on the net. Thankfully by sheer luck the whole operation failed spectacularly before any harm was done.
(The nurse placed the cam while the patient was away to dialysis. The patient collapsed there and sadly passed away in hospital. The nurse was unable to retrieve the camera due to being quarantined due to COVID. A relative who was either in IT sec or a LEO-i can’t remember -of the patient removed the belongings and found the camera. Nurse caught themselves on cam when installing the cam and was charged, sentenced to two years on probation, a high fine and banned from ever working in a care job again. The only reason why no actual prison sentence was handed out was the confession which helped in a larger case.)
Damn, that nurse/camera story is truly disgusting - but sadly, like you say, these people do exist. Imagine being an intensely private and reserved person your whole life - then one of your kids decides to film you 24/7. I’d be mortified if that was me.
Just talked to a friend about it - he is head of a nursing home group in Central Europe.
He had multiple cases when they had relatives trying to do that. Funnily enough the main reason cited by the relatives was to stop other relatives from “doing something funny about the will” .
They actually have a policy when they place a hidden camera in cases of alleged property theft - but this is done in conjunction with the client, their relatives (if not the target), sometimes the court and done by a professional company in a way that the actual patient is not part of the picture/not compromised. (And it’s paid for by the facility - they don’t want a rotten apple as well)
Put in a non-hidden camera.
This. Go ahead and tell everyone that you are worried about your mother and would like to see her anytime and check on her for your own peace of mind. Post a clear, preferably large, sign up front that there’s an active camera in the room. But do not insist on it. That’ll tell you all you need to know about the staff very quickly.
For the camera, use a regular old wifi-enabled baby monitor (App-controlled for best results) and connect it to a mobile Internet router. These routers have internal logs - learn how to access them, then check them (remotely, after setting up security in them) at intervals for suspicious reboot events.
If she’s well enough to consent to this, have her consent. Then install the cameras in such a way that her privacy is not eroded. For example, camera A only sees the door into the room, camera B only sees the night stand, camera C only sees the wardrobe. That sort of thing. Then instruct her to always keep her valuables in a location where at least one camera can monitor.
No nursing home worth their money would and should allow this…
Why the hell not?
It does heavily impede the privacy of the client - it is massively intrusive as nursing care can be a very private matter for the patient, it does infringe on the privacy rights of the staff and opens up a whole lot of legal issues.
I don’t know the mental capacity of OP’s mother, but if she can consent to this, I don’t see a problem with what is essentially a patient deciding to film themselves in their own room. And if she’s not capable of consenting to this, I’d say that OP’s suggestion to install a hidden camera in her room is pretty unethical.
She consents, however she’s not mentally well enough to know she’s being robbed. Someone has been taking her cash and tried to use her debit card. The bank flags it, cancels her card, then she has to wait 2 weeks for a new card. Her bank is a credit union in another state, so she has no money until then. I have power of attorney as of 3 days ago
If someone is attempting to use her card, maybe it’s time to talk to police? That’s illegal, right?
If the patient would be fully competent there would not be a question if the money was taken by staff.
And nursing home patients are a highly vulnerable population - they are sadly often easily pressured into consenting by relatives. Consenting to a camera is even one of the less nefarious things they do consent to…I have seen far worse.
Did you Google this? They have cameras that look like phone chargers. Also, install a non hidden camera and a hidden one.
Assuming you live in the United States, you need to be aware of the laws in the state you live in. Many states are one party consent when it comes to recording. Which means if you and I are having a conversation, you can record it without telling me. One party has consented.
If on the other hand, you install a camera without your mom’s knowledge, then you are not one of the two parties. This “evidence” could be thrown out of court as it is “illegally aquired”.
Not to say you shouldn’t do it. Protect your mom’s property. I would just suggest looking into the local laws about it. I am also not a lawyer so you should look into your local laws or consult a lawyer.
IANAL, but I believe these laws cover audio recording only. OP shouldn’t have an issue if they use something that records video only.
Think about it a second. I live in a two party consent state, but I see security & surveillance cameras everywhere. If two party consent was required for video then they wouldn’t be there.
The doorbell cameras that everyone have all record audio, in blatant violation of law, and they hand it over to police. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a court case to really slap those companies on the wrist.
Outdoors are generally not protected by right to privacy, even if on private property.
Someone standing in their own front lawn can be recorded with both video and audio without their consent.
This is what makes it legal to record police.
Hmm, interesting. A lot of things make more sense now.
I think there should be protections a bit stronger than that, at least. You’re forced to go outside to basically live life. If you have a situation where you’re forced to pass through someone else’s property by geometry they lose their right to stop you, and something similar should apply here.
Yeah, that’s mostly true, but the front porch of a home is part of the home for 4th amendment purposes. Police obtaining warrant-less access to your front porch would violate this.
If someone is out on the street, it can still be illegal depending on the state. In new york, for example, the definition of illegal eavesdropping includes:
“Mechanical overhearing of a conversation” means the intentional overhearing or recording of a conversation or discussion, without the consent of at least one party thereto, by a person not present thereat, by means of any instrument, device or equipment.
There’s no no stipulation about location.
The problem isn’t just that it will be thrown out in court, it’s that it itself is illegal.
Which doesn’t necessarily mean don’t do it but you’re limited in how you can reveal how you know things are being stolen etc.
Agreed. I’m not entirely (barely) versed in the law, but at the very least, if it’s a one party consent state, his mom would “have to set it up”.
What’s less clear to me is why the drastic action? Start by leaving a 20 on the dresser and see if it stays there.
Im curious what you mean by “plays possum”. Because if it doesn’t have a battery backup it wont work very well unplugged. Been looking at cameras for the house lately, and have yet to find one that flips over and sticks its legs in the air when unplugged.
Maybe he meant the red indicator light turns off when it’s unplugged but continues recording until the battery runs out
That’s how I read what they wrote.
Yes that’s what I meant
Wyze cameras are really cheap.
You don’t have any other idea to check if the thing is happening?
Hide behind the curtain?
Do you have any ideas? How would you detect theft of cash when the owner of the cash doesn’t trust their own memory?
There are hidden cameras that look like power strips.
My middle school used alarm clock cameras to spy on us. Cheap-o’s couldn’t be bothered to buy real cameras. I don’t have a link, but it’s just an idea
Ideas are what I’m looking for. Clock camera is a good idea
