- cross-posted to:
- elektroautos@feddit.de
- cross-posted to:
- elektroautos@feddit.de
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An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that’s the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill.
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The motors have never been the problem, it’s always been the battery. See train engines, they are a diesel generator with electric motors.
This is where history pisses me off. We should have been headlong into battery research after the oil embargoes. Could have been 40 years faster.
I hope you are not talking about battery locomotives.
With overhead wires the train has a practically unlimited battery capacity.
pretty sure most trains are powered by either overhead wires or third rails? considering that urban rail systems are always electrified and those have A LOT of trains.
Freight trains are diesel electric.
Not in America
okay? i’m talking about the world though, so typical for people to just assume america is all that matters lmao
The point is about utilization of electric motors, if it happens anywhere on earth it’s possible. You’re trying to insinuate that it isn’t true. And it is. Being American has nothing to do with it you dunce
Exactly this. Imagine if gas powered motor could recharge in mere 12 hours and run for up to half the distance. Ah, that would be the dream.
And if you and 5 of your neighbors decide to refuel at the same time during peak hours you have a real chance of overloading your neighborhood grid. And your fuel tank is dead in 5 years, replacing which is more than half of your used cars cost.
Everything non-portable uses electric motors from the time the first wire was invented.
Boy it sure is easy to win a debate when you use fictional information
When you look at fueleconomy.gov you will see that the furthest a compact ev can go is 149 miles while the furthest a ice compact car can go is 594 miles
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/01/why-the-ev-boom-could-put-a-major-strain-on-our-power-grid.html You can read cnbcs article on how the grid is already pretty spread thinn with us already increasing our power demand by almost 3,000% in the last decade without even considering ev charging
https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-an-ev/
According to motor trend DC charging is the fastest way to charge your EV and it still takes just under two hours Couldn’t find a source that studied how long a ice takes to recharge but considering how ices are currently extremely common you can easily test that yourself and probably already know it’s so quick you don’t even think about it
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/
According to car and driver those lithium ion batteries you mentioned while yes they can last a decade most cars typically stay on the road for give or take 30-35 years and lithium ion batteries are inherently expensive and prone to thermal cascading ie catching fire also full charge and depletion wears the battery down over time
https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/electric-car-battery-replacement-costs.html According to Edmunds.com the average cost of ev battery replacement costs anywhere from 5,000$ to 15,000$ So what point was made up
The price. The price is the problem for all us poors.
It wouldn’t be so bad if they paired small batteries with backup generators.
But nooo, its 7000lb all electrics or overly complicated ICE-hybrids, nothing in between.
7000lb all electrics
This idea overlaps the big truck mentality: most EVs are much lighter. The weight penalty averages only about 20% over an equivalent ICE, so the type of vehicle you get can be a much bigger impact. My EV is a mid sized SUV that may be the biggest car I’ve ever owned and it weighs 4,000 lbs. I’m not claiming it’s light, but it’s much better than you seem to think
Wait how is what you’re proposing different from ICE hybrids?
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An ICE hybrid is a gas car with a little electric motor shoehorned inside.
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A “plug in” hybrid as they are called is a full electric drivetrain, with a gas generator like you’d buy at Lowes stuck in the boot .
It seems trivial, but the difference is massive. The former is super complicated, heavy, and expensive, as you need all the junk a gas car needs and the electric stuff to go with it.
The later is hilarously efficient. It takes the best part of electric cars, the dead simple drive train, and solves their achilles heel: the massive battery. You can get away with a dirt cheap 3 horsepower generator in such a setup and shrink the battery massively, whereas a ICE hybrid needs a huge car engine and (like I said) all the expensive junk that goes with it.
You don’t see more of the later because:
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Car manufacturers are geared to produce ICE cars, and reserve the electric drivetrain capacitry for profitable luxury vehicles first.
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This is just speculation on my part, but a gas range extending generator “taints” a full electric car, making it unpalatable to people who think it ruins the image, eco friendliness or whatever, when it’s actually better for the environment because the battery isn’t so freaking big.
Gotcha, thanks for explaining!
Of course!
Another point I was getting as is that pure electric cars suffer from the same problem space rockets do: most of their weight is fuel.
Hence they are heavy, need a lot of raw material and manufacturing. Read: Expensive and bad for the environment, compared to a cheaper plug in hybrid.
And a tiny, 5 horsepower gasoline generator is hilarously efficient compared to a car engine. And dirt cheap, and weighs virtually nothing. There are technical reasons for this, but basically it’s not even in the same league, and produces a fraction of the emissions as a full ICE car.
Maybe truth is they started talking about doing a car like that and by the time it was ready for production they ended up with a regular ICE car because they nearly doubled the HP of the generator every time the design got reviewed like you are doing now. Before long it will be a tiny 98 HP generator…
You really don’t need 90hp. Coasting on the freeway takes less than 10hp, depending on how big of a block you drive, so as long as the average is around that, the generator can keep the battery charged forever, and the battery handles any surge in power you need. It’s only a problem if you drive like a jerk, and floor it out of every light or speed down the highway at 100+mph, and do it long enough to drain the battery.
But the brilliant part is that you can design the generator motor for single, constant RPM. I can’t emphasize how much easier and more efficient that makes everything, vs. having to engineer a huge power/rpm range that can handle a dynamic load.
They were a fantastic idea but:
- too many people never plugged them in, so you just have a slightly heavier ICE car
- they would have been a great transition to full EV, but full EVs are now functional enough for most people (we need to get the volume up to get the price down)
I suppose they’re still right for some people but generally it’s just Toyota looking back to do what they should have been doing ten years ago
I disagree. I have folks who are relatively well off, but can’t get an EV due to range anxiety.
And again, a tiny engine running constantly is still massively efficient if it’s done right.
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Purchase price, higher maintenance costs (EVs eat tires due to the increased weight and higher torque), installation of charging infrastructure (some us need expense electrical service upgrades and added wiring; we don’t all have 200 amp panels and garages with 30 amp 240v service already wired in)
I’d love an EV, but I won’t be afforded Int one for a bit. And used ones, even if cheaper, will have massive battery degradation cutting range way down.
the price gap is slowly closing, esp if you take into account total cost of ownership. It agree that the upfront cost makes it out of reach for many people.
Really the biggest part of the price gap now seems to be volume. Not enough new cars to offset the R&D and bring prices down. Not enough new cars for there to be a healthy used car market. And especially not enough non-premium cars
If you read comments on Instagram and the like, people hate electric cars because…
…they don’t do the vroom-vroom noise.
And I don’t get this. I mean I also love the feel of power you get from a large engine turning over, but really? You over there in that mustang making all that noise and effort, really straining to accelerate, while my Tesla effortlessly leaves you in the dust? Do people not understand how much more powerful it feel to be the fastest car with seemingly no effort?
That’s a very real issue that car enthusiasts have a hard time with. There’s just something about a great sounding engine that is the cherry on top of a car you like. My weak spot is a 4 rotor screaming like a banshee from Mazda’s Le Mans car.
Car enthusiasts are weird.
The whole notion of loud = fast falls apart with electric engines.
Not many people buy cars just because they sound good. It’s usually the engine that makes it sound good.(+exhaust, etc). Which means tha there’s still the need for speed.
But if you want speed, you need to go electric.
The whole macho V8 rumble and manually shifting gears is now less effective than a one-pedal, one-gear, quiet electeic setup.
This must such a huge disconnect in their heads, that they go about posting “electric = gay” on car videos.
Just like listening to loud music with windows down, the loud fart cans are just for seeking attention.
A loud engine is now an equivalent of a dog that barks, but doesn’t bite.
I agree that there are many cars that sound incredible (four rotor Mazdas, Porche Carerra GTs, Black or Brabus Mercs, you name it), but disliking electric cars because they make a silly quiet noise just makes one a poser, IMO.
Electric cars are fun, and I don’t personally mind they’re basically silent. But nothing will replace the fun of a manual transmission ICE.
I don’t think most people get a loud exhaust for attention either, but because they like it. But windows down blasting music is pointless and toxic, IMO.
Also saying if you want speed to go electric is too generic, IMO. What kind of speed and when you’re going to use it is important. For example, if you want speed from a standstill, then sure electric. Want speed once you’re already moving, like a race track, then ICE is fine since you’ll be high RPMs.
There’s more to speed than just speed
Electric cars are fast, but the boring kind of fast
But remember, electric motors also require next to no maintenance and can last for many years of runtime. Pros and cons.
And no gearing, so no complex moving part assemblies…
Unfortunately, brushless motors are also trivial to waterproof.
Uh, maintenance is one thing where ICE wins (until very recently, thanks fucktards in car industry). Cars have been generally very easy to work on, with anyone with a toolbox being able to do most their repairs in a shed
This isn’t a function of the engine though right? Electric engines are inherently simpler and should therefore be easier to maintain (putting aside company fuckery)
High voltage is scary as fuck, but also the fact that absolutely everything from doors to gas pedal and chairs are controlled by a computer you need specialized proprietary equipment to investigate.
This is an issue with new ice cars too to be honest
EVs have a High voltage disconnect. I repaired my EV(inverter) with normal hand tools in my garage. I did have to buy a license and tool for flashing the firmware, but this is a problem in nearly every new vehicle, gas or electric.
That’s a user-hostile feature, not a property of electric engines. An electric car has far simpler mechanical parts, and the circuitry isn’t very complicated either. It could be made incredibly easy to repair, modify, and upgrade, mostly at home even, if they designed them that way
That’s true. But since now it’s all messed up shit that you can’t fix yourself they’re on fairly equal line there.
Actually, piston engines are really bad a torque. It’s why they need a flywheel or a large amount of pistons.
I would absolutely love to have an EV. But they are very expensive, especially compared to the gas-powered car I already own.
Maybe in your country. Chinese electric cars are plenty cheap, many of them are cheaper than most ICE cars
Well everything’s more expensive than the thing you already own. It’s true, most are available in the higher end markets right now, but the Bolt and Leaf are pretty cheap. In the long run, almost all EVs are cheaper than their gas counterparts.
Only thing stopping me having one is cost.
A 2 year old Polestar 2 with 12,000 miles just cost my buddy slightly less than $25k. You can’t even get an Accord with that age and mileage that cheap these days! Hertz dumped a bunch of them on the market recently, they were too much fun to be a profitable rental so they’re absurdly cheap right now
Sounds good until you have to replace the battery. I want one of the rivian rts but they are still too pricy even used.
you drive your cars for 300000 miles?
My 2010 wagon has 180k and I can still take it to the mountains and not worry about finding a broken charge port on the way home.
How the hell would you break a charge port? If you managed that then no vehicle is safe.
Oh, the charging station. Charging port I think would mean the port it plugs into on your car. Yeah, I guess that could be an issue, but it’s not really something that needs to be considered by a consumer. The fact that you’re much less likely to have mechanical issues I think more than makes up for the rare case of vandalism, which can happen to any piece of the infrastructure, for gas and electric.
“On the other hand gas has a much higher energy density than batteries and a much faster refuel rate.”
It’s exactly this. Convenience. We’ve become accustomed to how convenient it is and don’t want to be put out.
On the other hand, it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.
Or just use the clothes dryer circuit… Charge the car overnight… Get all the range.
You don’t even need the clothes dryer circuit, the vast majority of people don’t drive enough in a day to need anything more than a standard 15a outlet
Tech Connections showed this pretty well.
That’s basically 90% of every car owner.
It’s one of those things where people feel like they’re going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.
It’s wild how little you end up actually needing more than 50 mi range. Even in a spread out California city, I rare use the ICE in my Volt
it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank
But, to make that possible, you basically have to have a “gas station” at home. If you own your own house you can modify it to install a charging spot. If you rent, you might not have that option.
On the one hand the Nokia 3310’s battery lasts a week. On the other hand the iPhone 15…
Just plug your car in when you’re not using it like you’d charge your phone overnight. It’s only a problem if you can’t charge at home (due to on street parking and no charging facilities on that street) and you can’t charge somewhere you usually take your car (eg a workplace).
Nope,it’s a problem in many other scenarios
If i ride to vacation to a country with no charging infrastucture, if I want to ride to the mountains where it is subzero and my range drops dramatically, if I go to a place where it’s 38 deree celsius and I need AC my range is pretty much fucked up… (not to mention that close to remote places like cool beaches there is no charging station)
If I want to have a road trip… i suddenly becomes a planning issue
There are still so many things that are complicated by having a EV, and I don’t need the extra complications
So you agree that we should heavily invest in building EV charging infrastructure?
We should slowly invest and push for transition, but the current status quo is for early adopters and enthusiasts IMO
Electric cars is not the solution. Sure, it’s an improvement, but for a real solution you need to get people out of personal vehicles on onto public transportation. Trains, trams, busses, whatever. Build it in a way that doesn’t suck. Assuming american, the US had (past tense) amazing train/tram networks decades ago. Every warehouse had a rail spur, and since walking was considered ok people weren’t obese fatasses.
I drive a scooter. It is possible to live without a car, although it does have some difficulties sometimes. If your job is within 10 miles of your home or less, then you don’t need a car for your commute. If I can do it so can you. I’d still rather take a bus, if it existed.
The issue with this stance is that it’s one of those all-or-nothing points of view. Sure it’s better to have good public transportation, but in a lot of places there won’t be for the foreseeable future. Sure it’s better to use bicycles, but sometimes it’s just not an option.
Electric cars won’t fix traffic, but for the planet they’re still a vast improvement. It’s like a viable 95% solution that is dismissed because there might a 100% one somewhere in the next 200 years.
My job is within 10mi of my home. If I walk there, I get there in 2 hours. If I take public transportation, it takes me 1h45m to 2h20m depending on the day.
I also live in a community where our electricity is from 90% renewable resources, 10% nuclear. Switching to an electric car is a 100% reduction in carbon usage for my commute. Using the bus isn’t.
Switching to an electric car is a 100% reduction in carbon usage for my commute.
Is it really? Are you positive?
How is your electricity generated. Coal, natural gas, or oil? Congratulations, your carbon usage is HIGHER with an EV than with an ICE! Is it hydro? Go look at the methane produced by those huge reservoirs. I haven’t seen the calculations, but it’s not neutral.
Oh, I know. You use solar and/or wind. Now look up the environmental costs of producing those. And of mining the special metals needed for the batteries. Or if you’re nuked, the costs of mining uranium.
Switching to an EV is not the simple “zero carbon” solution you seem to imagine it to be.
Why not get an electric bike then? Reasonable price tag, will get you to work within a reasonable timeframe, significantly less congestion on roads, and charges with that renewable energy without using a lot of it.
Also, their point was that adding infrastructure for public transport (aka improving the public transport you’re complaining about) will have a huge effect on reducing greenhouse gas emissions across a population and is more easily electrified. Your focus on an individual case is irrelevant to their argument.
I’ve lived in a city with really good transit, and even then, I’d prefer a car if it were affordable here.
Idk why ppl are down voting this, bro is literally just advocating for public transportation
Ig it’s all the insecure pickup truck bros
Edit: typos
Not everyone lives where public transportation is really feasible. He’ll EVs aren’t even practical where I live.
So we shouldn’t bother with it anywhere then?
You’re missing the forest for the trees
I drive a scooter.
Friend and coworker of mine was recently in a deadly accident on her way to work on a scooter. Those vehicles are great but on a road that is still primarily built for cars (and is now inhabited by ever more massive giant pickups) it can be a serious safety risk.
you need to get people out of personal vehicles on onto public transportation
This is really the heart of it. It’s an infrastructure problem. Frustratingly, this is the most difficult and time consuming problem to solve.
I want an EV. I think its 98% the right choice for me. I also 100% with you. Cars are a terrible solution at a certain density, which is what most industry and thus where people live makes sense.
Just came back from Tokyo. Tokyo’s public transportation is awesome. You do also need to walk a lot at times and the first few days our legs were quite sore. But towards the end of the trip I can feel my leg strength again, felt healthier, and did not miss my car at all. To go to certain places, you do have to plan a little bit ahead, for example, a day trip out to Mt. Fuji area requires booking tickets because right now there’s a ton of tourists. But within the city, the subways are so convenient.
TINY ELECTRIC GO CARTS
Real answer: power density. Pound for pound, gas still contains more energy than our best batteries. The weight of energy storage is still a massive deal for anything that cannot be tethered to a grid or be in close practical proximity for frequent recharging, from rockets, planes and cars (sometimes) to chainsaws and lawnmowers (sometimes).
Thing is that pound of gas is gone, that pound of battery is still there and ready for recharge.
A dead battery is far worse than an empty jerry can, atleast the jerry can is light. Hell there are even some real nice collapsible ones and thats not even accounting for fuel bladders. Electric is useful but it is also rather rigid as well.
Gas engines smell good 🥰
The reason I’m pretty much undecided about EVs is the rare metals in the batteries. The pollution by gathering and the inhumane treatment of the workers who extract these resources. I’m still hoping for better alternatives in the energy storage medium
I think of the mining issues somewhat like nuclear power. That mining is also very problematic and destructive to the environment. However in both cases, it’s a relatively small amount. Even if the local environmental or social cost is higher, it is such a small amount of material that the overall cost is still lower.
Also, consider supply and demand. Every article talking about how bad. The mining is, mentions how there’s reasons more developed countries don’t do it. Recent years have seen several announcements of newly discovered resource in the US, for example. Will they be mined, despite higher worker safety and environmental protection? One way to encourage this is higher demand, raising the price enough to drive their profitability
They’re still working on this. I’ve more or less been holding my breath on the battery tech.
I want to see, either easily recycled materials that are common (sodium cells seem to fit here), or batteries that last the useful life of the vehicle and beyond (solid state batteries are a good example here). I don’t really care which.
Cheap sodium based batteries, with adequate recycling technology would be a fine solution. Alternatively, even fairly “expensive” (in terms of rare metals) solid state batteries, would also be fine, since a single set of batteries may survive over several vehicles, depending on what solid state batteries can do when they finally hit the mass market.
I just don’t want to have to replace the battery at nearly the cost of a whole ass new EV, well short of the useful life of the rest of the vehicle. Either the battery cost and environmental impact comes down, or we remove the need to replace the batteries with a version that lasts as long or longer than the rest of the vehicle.
I like EVs. I want an EV. I don’t want to buy the current EVs on the market.
Also, if any vehicle designers are reading this, can we cut the shit where anything hybrid or EV looks ridiculous? IMO, a big reason why Tesla was so successful, is that they made it into a car. The model S, though unique in design, isn’t a significant departure from pretty much every other sedan, in terms of design. Compare with something like the Prius, which is generally only a funny looking hatchback, or the Volt… Which also looks pretty dumb IMO. Just give me a regular car.
… Okay, the Prius and Volt probably aren’t the best examples. I’ll put a better one here… The BMW i3. Just… What the hell.
Let’s not forget that EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent classes of vehicle, meaning they use more energy. Which is a problem because a) they store ever so much less energy, and b) they’re ever so much less energy-efficient. So you need more energy to move them, and charging inefficiency mounts on top of that, but hey, at least you have shorter range!
EVs are not what is going to save the environment. Indeed depending on your source of electricity (most of the world still uses fossil fuels to generate electricity, recall!) you could well be making things worse by switching to an EV.
You know what will save the environment? Ending personal automobile ownership and instead beefing up public transportation.
EVs do not use more energy than gasoline cars, that’s nonsense. The best ICE engine is ~40% efficient plus the losses from braking. Battery electric is closer to 80%. They are only around 10-15% heavier.
This is just incorrect. Lol. While I agree with the ending. EV aren’t the solution to climate change. EVs are a lot cleaner than ICE and use less energy.
I’ll keep my ICE and ride a bike. I’ll still do less environmental damage than you because I am human powered for all but the trips to the mountains, and then I don’t have to worry about being stranded without a plug.
And I have yet to hear a convincing argument that taking my perfectly working vehicle off the road to buy another manufactured product is still more environmentally friendly than… not buying anything at all.
I don’t give a fuck about initial torque. I’m going to be laughing in my wheetabix when there’s not a single EV older than a decade on their original batteries.
Downvotes don’t make me wrong, chuds.
I’m going to be laughing in my wheetabix when there’s not a single EV older than a decade on their original batteries.
You lost this one the instant you posted the comment.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-study-says-longer-than-you-think
This excludes major battery recalls, such as the Chevy Bolt and Hyundai Kona.
Boy… if all those 2010 Leafs are still on the road, why can’t I find any used for sale??
It’s almost like they didn’t do any investigative work and just regurgitated a Nissan spokesperson. It’s fucking Forbes after all.
So two strikes to you. Wanna try again?
What interests me is the terror threshold. People are just so much more, including me, afraid of electric motors vs ICE per kw.
Thats not very accurate, ICE motors aren’t quite out dated just yet. Electric has a long way to go with the storage and refuel cycle
What’s wrong with storage and refuelling? We got two electric cars, they charge well.
Time really, it takes me 5 minutes to fuel for 400 miles, it takes most ev owners much longer.
I work with a lot of EV I’m not just some hater. I wish they could charge faster or hold more range, I drive 1000 miles a week for work and can’t spend 5 hours a week at a charger sadly.
So, I get where you’re going, but first: it takes much longer, but I do it at home while I’m asleep, so that doesn’t really count. It’s more the opposite, I really enjoy not having to stop at gas stations anymore. You just never wake up to an empty car anymore.
Then, for longer trips, it obviously takes more time to recharge than to refuel. But as a family of five, we had breaks before we had an ev. Last time we made a longer trip, we picked up my inlaws and wanted to visit some other family members that were about one and a half charge stops away. We took three breaks because someone had to pee, someone was hungry or someone wanted whatever. If you’re a flying sales person that that wants to drive 2000 km in a day it’ll obviously be annoying. For anybody else that takes some reasonable stops along the way, I doubt it changes much. Just stop the car at a charger and grab a coffee at the next supermarket. Once you had that you can usually drive again.
Thats great, I’m glad it works for you and your family. But that anecdote doesn’t make it work for everyone yet.
You know, it actually does. Taking a 20 minute break every 3 hours doesn’t hurt anybody badly. That’s all it takes to no longer locally burn fossil fuels and reduce the emissions significantly. I get the problem that electric cars are too expensive and I understand that some people can’t afford them. But this entitlement of “my precious 20 minutes that I can spend doing some situps or have a coffee are too much to ask from me, so I’d rather keep burning carbon” is just nonsense. People should walk more and bike more and use more trains. However, if none of that works, electric cars are a working alternative to produce much less carbon dioxide. But if a slight inconvenience of taking not even the recommended pauses while driving is already too much to ask, this planet is fucked I guess.
Oh please.
Bad bot
1000 miles a week is under 130 a day.
Just charge it at home every day and you’re good.
Sometimes it’s 500 miles in a day. And in rural zones
My home won’t allow for fast charging. Nor can I afford to replace my reliable vehicle with an ev that won’t have the other features I need (a bed, ground clearance, 4x4, etc)
I’m glad you’re privileged though
Your home doesn’t need to charge fast. Just charge overnight. In Europe, after a few hours on a three phases plug your car will be full, after a night on a single phase as well. In the US, a night on an ordinary plug should give you enough range to do more than average stuff or at least get to the next fast charger.
To be honest, if you truly need a truck that’s of course an issue as you picked the biggest status symbol of them all, which makes it the most expensive type of car. There are plenty EVs with AWD and some ground clearance, maybe check them out and consider a small trailer if you need to transport your stuff?
However, you seem to already have decided to dislike EVs, so I doubt you’d be enjoying it. If you’re bent on hating something, chances are you’ll find a reason to do so.
I’ve been clear it’s a work truck, not a status symbol
And I work wholesale auto auctions. I love EV I wish I could buy one.
But burying our heads in the sand and pretending it has 0 drawbacks is what got us into this fossil fuel mess in the first place.
I’m not saying your truck in particular is a status symbol, I’m saying trucks are status symbols and therefore generally expensive. If you’re in the US, it’s hard to find something like a Honda Acty and you’ll always pay for the machine to be oversized.
I’m also not saving EVs have no drawbacks at all. The drawbacks they have are, however, manageable. A car will always be a compromise, and the fact that electric cars have to be charged is something that can be dealt with.
