I hope you’re a troll but here you go

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

So in 1945… what happened to Poland… since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right?

In 1945, the soviets installed a friendly communist government in Poland, while granting it again the right to be an independent country, kind of proving that the objective from the start wasn’t “to conquer Poland because Russians are so evil”, but to not have enemies in their borders. There were purges of anticommunists as everywhere else in the soviet block.

Now I’ll ask you: in 1989 and forwards, with the Solidarity movement. Do you believe that’s a grassroots movement which spawned purely in Poland, with the only goal of freedom and democracy, and wasn’t in any way influenced by other countries? Hint: USA? The 1989 “revolution” was completely autonomous and legitimate and now Poland is finally a completely free state?

So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gaulle’s personal opinions on the matter

Funny how the purported opinion of polish citizens about Russia isn’t affected by propaganda, but the french polls are somehow.

You seem to be under some belief that the USSR never committed atrocities

I never claimed anything like that. I’m aware of the Katyn massacre and the purges of anticommunists in the USSR on a widespread level, just not particularly against Poland.

genocide levels of damage to Poland

Sorry, only Polish people actually believe that. There’s no international body as far as I know which makes any claim of genocide towards Polish by the USSR.

Tell me one I’m defending

they’re monsters

Great, now you’re not talking even of Russia as a country, but of Russians as a people, and calling them universally monsters, whether they’re peasants under the Russian Empire, workers in the Soviet Union, or citizens under the Russian Federation. Nice way to show everyone here that yes, your whole point here is Russophobia, not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.

Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you’re not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck

My point is it should be

Except predictions on manufacturing capabilities of a country with a history of well-coordinated economic plans, can be a bit more reliable. But sure, I get your point, and tbh I haven’t even opened the link on the post.

I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it’s the first link that I could copy-paste, since it’s more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it’s a comment section and not a scientific article.

So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.

Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn’t “I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government”. You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.

Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren’t Russian, don’t we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!

Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!

Actually that is a human right

Source?

Countries are free to ally with whatever country they want pending any previous agreements

Free to do so, for sure, I’m not claiming illegality, I’m claiming it’s wrong. It leads historically to escalation, not to mitigation of tensions. Remember the missile crisis

Eastern European countries made zero promises and had zero obligation to not join NATO

Again, you’re not understanding me for some reason. I’m not putting the blame on those countries, I’m putting the blame on NATO itself. It’s not that these countries shouldn’t want to join a pre-existing military alliance, it’s that a supposedly defensive military alliance shouldn’t incorporate member countries ever closer to the declared enemy of the US of A.

I wouldn’t have a problem with Mexico or Canada willfully joining an alliance with China

I would have immense problems with China fostering military relations with the neighbouring countries of their geopolitical adversary, and if you don’t, I think you should rethink that.

Maybe if Russia wasn’t such a shitty, untrustworthy neighbor, more countries would be willing to ally with them

I don’t want any countries to ally militarily with Russia. I fully understand that Russia has a fascist aggressive government and I’m glad I don’t currently live next to it as a Spanish citizen. My whole point is that NATO isn’t a “purely defensive military alliance of independent countries”, it’s an organization subservient to the interests of the USA which has shown no remorse to act on foreign countries which didn’t threat military action against member states of NATO, as was the case in Libya and Yugoslavia, and unofficially in Iraq.

What’s your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn’t fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that’s what Nazis did against soviets.

I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It’s a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it’s 25%. That’s exactly propaganda.

When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I’ll be ready to talk with you. I’m sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it’s impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.

Good job evading the uncomfortable 90% of my comment. Since we’re at that point, I will proceed to evade 100% of yours, seeing how you’re not interested in discussing actual facts such as the reasons for the USSR to make a non aggression treaty with the Nazis after a decade of systematic rejection of military alliances by Poland, England and France.

Yes. Propaganda.

Got it bro, the actual Nazis aren’t the Nazis, neither the ones who eliminated the most radical oppositors to Nazism, but actually the ones that died 26+mn of trying to fight them. God, you anti-communist revisionists are exhausting.

The Bolsheviks actively collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis, right up until Operation Barbarossa

Ugh, not this Nazi talking point again… The Soviet Union pursued for all the 30s a policy called “collective security”, in which it desperately tried to achieve mutual-defense pacts with England, France and Poland because the soviets knew that their 15-year-old nation which had only just started industrializing since the end of the feudal and backwards Russian Empire, didn’t have a chance alone against the Nazis with their 150 year long history of industry (as would be seen later with the USSR suffering 26+mn deaths during the war, in places like Belarus 1 in 4 people died). The USSR wanted these mutual defense agreements to the point of offering to send 1 million soldiers to France and England if they agreed to mutual defense… which France, England and Poland denied because they thought Nazis would attempt their declared goal of eliminating communisnm and massacring the “slavic untermenschen”. After this was denied and it was obvious that the west would rather see the USSR invaded than reach a mutual defense agreement, they did the only possible course of action: delaying the war as much as possible to prepare for it and industrialize a bit more. That’s where the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact takes place, not before a decade of exhausting every possible negotiation route with France and England in opposition to Nazism.

The fact that the USSR then proceeded to (rather bloodlessly, around 50k deaths overall, very comparable to the oppression within the USSR itself) invade Poland, has to do with the USSR not trusting the Polish government. Why? In 1917, the Bolshevik revolution drafted an unprecedentedly progressive constitution which granted the right to self-determination and lawful secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire. That’s how many countries such as Finland or Poland suddenly gained independence lawfully and peacefully in a never-before-seen act of respect of the right of self-determination. What did Poland immediately proceed to do? Become fully nationalist, ignore the right to self-determination of other peoples, and invade Ukraine (and later the USSR) in an attempt to gain territories they considered theirs by historical right. When they had conquered a good chunk of modern Ukraine and Belarus, the Polish Government decided it was a good idea to start a war against the USSR, since the USSR was plunged deep into a civil war and didn’t have many resources or troops to defend itself, and some conquests and victories could grant them a positive peace agreement which granted the territories the Polish Nationalists considered theirs (while ignoring the right to self-determination that the Bolsheviks had granted them less than two years earlier). Poland was also happy to make peace and appeasement treaties with Nazi Germany as long as they could also get some territorial gains from Czechoslovak land.

Similarly, Finland in 1917 after gaining independence, was plunged into a civil war between communists and whites, which the latter won and proceeded to imprison communists in Finland who had supported the Reds, around 80k of which some 12k died (funny how nobody talks about that). The USSR had reasons to suspect of a possible alliance between the Finnish government and the Nazis, and proceeded to invade Finland. After the failure of the invasion, as you said, Finland joined the Nazis.

Blaming the USSR for entering a non-aggression treaty with the Nazis, when all western nations had done it, and after 10 years of the USSR trying to make mutual defense agreement with Poland, England and France, is at best ignorant, and at worst purposefully misinforming with an agenda. The USSR had reasons to suspect of Poland and Finland (especially given its history of constant betrayals by all European powers since the October Revolution, with 14 countries sending troops to aid the Tsarist loyalists against the Bolsheviks) and, while outright invasions may not be justified, it could all have been prevented if the western powers had actually agreed to fight nazism. It’s absolutely nuts to blame the USSR and call them “collaborators with Nazis” given the historical background of the two decades before the war, especially the latter.

“Tankie is when you bring up that Nazi anti-communist propaganda about rapist soviets isn’t scientific”

“Blaming NATO for the invasion of Ukraine is when you say NATO isn’t good and there should be a European military alliance instead while you condemn primarily the Russian Government for the invasion”

“Genocide denial is when you compare the treatment of minorities in the US and in China”

Grow up

Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!

Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn’t the case 40 years ago.

Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it’s 70% Americans. That’s what Hollywood and propaganda do.

So we both agree that the Stalinist Sovietunion and the KPD, which allied themselves with them arent left?

One country ended up with Nazis. The other ended up defeating the Nazis. I’d say the Bolsheviks did a better job, didn’t they? The fact that there was oppression against Mensheviks and SRs in the context of a civil war, doesn’t mean they’re anticommunists, they didn’t quite literally enable the Nazis in order to murder the ones who were more communist than them, but defeat them instead.

Want to find the blame for Nazism in Germany? The fault is primarily of Nazis, and then of Nazi enablers, and then of anti-communist leftists.

profit margins will continue to get thinner and thinner as competition increases

Competition doesn’t increase under capitalism, it decreases as a consequence of economy of scale, consolidation of markets, corruption and many other reasons. Tell me how competition fosters when Amazon, Google, Walmart, Apple, Uber and the rest of big firms control all their respective markets.

Your second paragraph is a senseless utopian dream not based on reality, I won’t even bother arguing against it.

I’m fully aware, I never said workers are free under capitalism

As I said, I know they willfully joined, I’m saying they shouldn’t be allowed to join a military alliance with NATO, the same way I would want China not to create a military alliance and then incorporate Mexico and Canada, even if Mexico and Canada wanted to. Joining a military alliance isn’t a human right.

As did everyone. There’s no study showing that the amount of rapes per soldier by the soviets is higher than that of other nations.