Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them
It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic
Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.
Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!
The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.
And it’s history stems from religious ideology.
Edit: oh you downvoters. Go look it up. A woman had a vision from God that said “don’t eat things with faces”. Dead serious - that’s where it started.
All the sciencey justifications today are post-hoc rationalization.
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In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy
I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.
Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly
Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.
In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.
They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).
But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.
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I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.
Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn’t stop. He just kept on me about why I didn’t eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don’t eat meat I said “meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.
“meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.
It’s both sad and hillarious that this worked. I wonder if you created a new vegetarian as well
As a life-long vegetarian, this has been my experience as well.
Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?
Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don’t vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.
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Do-gooder derogation Basically, some people perceive others’ moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.
There’s a ton of vegans who exist without trying to force their way of life on everyone, but the ones who do dominate the conversation and can be off putting.
Just like with everything else that people make into a lifestyle or part of their identity. Most are cool, but there’s always a vocal minority of dillweeds that take it way too seriously or use it to judge others that aren’t part of their pack.
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This argument is the same one anti-abortionists use.
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How is it?
Edit to address your edit: Still the same argument anti-abortionists use.
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I’m saying that what you are saying is the same as anti-abortionists saying that abortion is murder.
It’s not going to convince anyone who doesn’t think the exact same as you on the subject because it relies on beliefs that not everyone has.
How would you frame the vegans as the pro-choice activists in your hypothetical situation?
no one hates veganism, we just hate the vegans
Become a good one then!
It’s the fandom mostly. I like using Linux but I don’t think you are immoral for using windows. Rick and Morty is funny but I don’t think Rick is someone to take any advice from. CrossFit seems to work for most people who stick with it but it is one of many options. I won’t apologize for being an atheist but I don’t think you are stupid for not being one.
The problem with Veganism is the problem with monotheism. There is one proper way to live and all the others are wrong and awful.
That and the lying. I won’t deny that there are farmers who abuse their animals, that is a problem that can be dealt with through the legal system, but you can’t sell me a sack of lies claiming that I abused the cows I milked growing up. Because I know I didn’t.
But what about disagreements that aren’t just about preferences, but about right and wrong? Vegans don’t view it as the type of question that’s like, “Do you like Kirk or do you like Picard?” but rather as the type of question that’s like, “Is it ok to beat your children?” The proper way to live is to not beat children and all other ways are wrong and awful. Framing the question as merely about individual preferences and not about morality is assuming the conclusion.
I won’t deny that there are farmers who abuse their animals, that is a problem that can be dealt with through the legal system, but you can’t sell me a sack of lies claiming that I abused the cows I milked growing up.
The legal system has no interest in addressing the vast majority of animal abuse, and there’s a lot of money in it which means enough political influence to ensure that never changes. The vast majority of produced goods relies on abusive conditions. It is possible to produce animal products without abuse, but removing abuse from the system means less will be produced, which means a reduction in consumption is still necessary.
What if I told you the quiet part loud? I don’t think every life is fundamentally created equal.
I’m a farm boy turned liberal and if you’re going to argue about climate change and the benefits of a vegetarian diet in that respect, you’ve got the right of it and I’ll eat less meat (I’m trying). If you’re going to say “cow abuse is child abuse!” I will personally come murder a cow for you and eat it with you (or against you, I guess?).
You are barking up the wrong tree and have missed the point whenever you come to this argument. Plants and animals grown for food ARE. FOR. FOOD. and you will not turn me to your way of thinking by crying foul about their treatment. I would love to minimize animal suffering / I am not into animal torture, but you’re just not going to get there unless you’re literally demonstrating widespread suffering for sport of livestock animals. If there was a raccoon outside right now screwing with my dog or my kid or my house or whatever I would absolutely end it and not lose a second of sleep, without considering it’s children or parentage or treatment.
I am who you are dealing with and who you are trying to convert. The “proper way to live” has nothing to do with it. I grow food, I eliminate pests, I eat the food I intended to raise. Cow, corn, pig, dog, cat, unicorn, etc: it gets to grow and flourish as much as I can provide, then it gets harvested to eat, unless it is invasive then it gets summarily removed.
It’s not about callousness or disregard for the beauty of life, my situation has just been fundamentally different than yours unless you also spent childhood raising your own food.
Do I know you?
Because y’all are fuckin annoying. Good for you on not using animal products. I’m glad you have something you care a lot about. I dont need to hear about it every second of the day though. Vegans IRL generally dont preach about it but online people get on their sop boxes more consistently.
I think what you’re experiencing online is a mix of loud minorities1 and online disinhibition2, not an accurate representation of vegans.
1: When there exists a minority in XYZ Group that is “louder” than the majority, causing people to associate XYZ group with the minority. 2: The phenomena of people acting out more violently, frequently, or pushy online when compared to being in-person, primarily due to anonymity
It’s not veganism we hate, it’s the stereotypical preachy vegans, acting like farming is the equivalent of the holocaust.
You don’t tell me what to eat, I won’t tell you what to eat, everyone’s a winner.
“do-gooder derogation”
I think that hinges on them actually being morally superior, and for the rest of us it’s simply not a moral issue.
It’s not like all meat eaters are wandering about wring our hands like we know it’s wrong but it’s just so delicious. It’s just food. There’s no more to it than that.
Your ideology has a name and it’s called Carnism
I’m an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I’ve been on both sides if it. Here’s my opinion.
When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I’m pretty sure I’ve lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend’s husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a “bad person” for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you’re being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I’ve experienced this myself.
On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn’t like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, “what? You don’t like cheese? Why?!” I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son’s team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn’t get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn’t even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn’t hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.
Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you’re weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they’ll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they’ll be less patient and around and around it goes.
I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I’ve written. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I’ll get into it if anyone gives a shit.
But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can’t actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted.
But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not.
people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
Very well put, and agreed on all points, especially the bit about how this sort of in-group/out-group behavior is not limited to food. Veganism/food opinions in general are particularly clear examples of it in action though.
I forget where I first heard this, so unfortunately I can’t give proper credit, but I once heard that we’d all get along better if people learned to say “that’s not for me” instead of “that’s disgusting”, and it’s really stuck with me. Like who cares if someone doesn’t like cheese on their pizza? Picking it off is hurting no one. It’s a food preference, it’s not that serious. Let people enjoy things the way they want to enjoy things. If it isn’t immoral or harmful, let people be. People doing things differently from you is not grounds for you to question or ridicule. Have some empathy, have some respect, have some semblance of open-mindedness, and let people live their lives, man
I get what you are saying and I agree with “thats not for me”. The difference to other personal preferences is that as a carnist, you are paying for literaly billions of our fellow earthlings being killed on an industrial scale. So many that it’s destroying our livelihood. This is not a personal choice anymore, there are victims you choose to not notice, human and non-human. A lot of victims, 1.9 million chickens killed in Germany every day.
Once you realise this and you have the courage to really look beyond the word slaughter with your own eyes, see the inconceivable suffering, this became something I could not push out of my sight anymore. And then you realise it’s everywhere, and everyone is calling themselves animal lovers. So what do you do?
I don’t hate veganism. It’s a dietary choice and that’s fine. What I hate is vegans. They’re always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They’re an annoying group of people and I just don’t want to have to deal with them.
Veganism is not a dietary choice it’s a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.
Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is “vegan”. In the same way that I’m vegetarian but don’t care if I wear leather shoes.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don’t care to bother the rest of the world about it. That’s why OPs question keeps coming up.
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Do people say that in restaurants? I’ve actually never heard it.
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I think a lot of people also have a hard time seeing it as a priority for themselves compared to their personal problems and other ongoings. It’s subjective, sure. But it also takes a ton of personal responsibility and self control/denial to change habits.
Bottom line, there is a lot of things out there to care about right now, and being vegan is a big change for a lot of people. That, mixed with the extreme (understandable) feelings about mistreatment of animals by vegans, often leads to a feeling of repulsion from investing personal bandwidth into changing the behavior.
That’s my opinion based on growing up with religiously vegan parents.
Were you raised vegan from birth? Are you still vegan? Asking out of curiosity.
I have no issues with veganism but I do have issues with being attacked because I’m not vegan. I’ve been attacked for using cow milk even after explaining that I can’t use plant milk because of sensory issues.
Funnily enough, just like you said, I know vegans IRL who would never behave that way and of course I accommodate their dietary choices when I’m in charge of food.
I think it’s mostly an Internet thing when you just see the loudest minority instead of the more quiet majority.
I’ve been attacked for using cow milk
How do they even oppose THAT?
I love how people try to make this some kind of cultural issue about picking restaurants or providing options. Anybody who spends 5 minutes looking into the industry will realize it goes against basic human decency.
Yeah, I’m surprised how many comments are not even trying to understand anything. The information is only one click away, from credible sources.
Feels like talking to an army of 12 year olds.
There are some very militant vegans out here on Lemmy, equating eating meat with rape and murder and generally being annoying without actually contributing to the discussions.
They are actively harming their cause. So much so, I suspect them of actually being trolls trying to make vegans look bad.
Or they are just dumb as a brick and don’t understand common discourse. That’s possible too.
Well if you support the rape and murder of animals (both common in animal agriculture) don’t be surprised when people get upset
Thank you for proving everyone’s point. This is the .01% I was talking about @CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.world
Eh, sometimes it makes sense to just call things as they are instead of trying to tiptoe around peoples feelings.
If you don’t think artificial insemination is a form of rape/sexual violation, then idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. If you don’t think unnecessary killing is murder, then again idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. (Note that there’s not really any good reason for the term “murder” to only apply to humans. If someone kills your dog would you be opposed to the use of the word “murder” then?)
Do you refer to animals predating other animals as murder too?
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Veganism is more or less a 1st world phenomenon. Most humans, especially in the past, did not have the luxury to choose what they could eat. They ate what they could get and if they got access to meat and animal products they ate it because it has high nutritional and caloric value. Even the vegetarian Indians who don’t eat meat foe religious purposes still have eggs, milk, etc.
It feels disconnected with the human struggle.
In addition, it’s sort of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. OK. You don’t eat meat to protect domesticated cows. In reality, those cows would not exist in the first place. So really, you’re advocating to eliminate the species of domesticated cattle.
In addition, our modern society requires massive amounts of energy which is often generated by fossil fuels. Even if a society uses 100% solar, they’re importing products from countries like China that burn coal.
So you’re pumping out carbon emissions that will inevitably result in mass extinctions anyway. It seems like a meaningless protest against the inevitable. You say let’s exterminate the cows to save them from suffering on one hand and with the other drive to work talking on your iPhone with the A/C turned up- contributing to the destruction of infinitely more animals.
The only real way to stop is for everyone to give up every modern luxury and live in a log cabin in the woods. And for the vast majority of the population to die off.
It just feels like pissing into the void but doing so with moral superiority.
Having said all that, I empathize with many vegans. But those are some thoughts on why people may look down on vegans.
Wow, you ticked like half of the Vegan Bullshit Bingo.
The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy. Please engage, don’t just watch. Start wherever you like, but start!
So many vegans in this thread tring to answer the question and getting it completely wrong.
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