Not to insult anyone’s philosophies or anything, but it’s always weirded me out how socialists name their ideologies after people, instead of what they represent. Anarchist philosophies are called things like mutualism, market anarchist, syndicalism, platformism, et cetera. Socialist philosophies are Marxism, Leninism, De Leonism, et cetera. Again, not shitting on the philosophies themselves, just the naming tradition, and how psychologically I think that might help that whole image of dogmatic attachment to the thinker, instead of the thought.
Doesn’t seem weird to me. Things are routinely named after their creators/discoverers/proponents in STEM. Nobody thinks you’re being dogmatic if you talk about Newtonian gravity or Fourier transformations. Why should political philosophy be different?
It’s not that it seems to be weird, per se, more that it adds to that image of dogmatic attachment that leftists often have. In addition, cults of personality are a real thing, and sometimes it can be difficult to separate thinker from thought, especially when the thinker is centralized in the philosophy. At least, feels that way to me. In the stem fields, no one is going to argue that we must have a focus on God in the sciences, for instance, just because Newton was religious. That’s not the subject of discussion when talking about gravity, it’s containted pretty tightly to gravity and it’s explanation using observable, repeatable experimentation. Whereas it’s pretty common within Marxist communities that one must be an atheist to be a Marxist, as Marx was an atheist and talked about the abolishment of the church. Political philosophy isn’t as far removed from religious philosophy as we would often like to think.
Big ass asterisk on this comment: I’m currently sick, and feel like I’m not explaining myself well at all. Got that brain fog.
That which you describe is not socialism. Marx, Lenin, Mao, ho chi min, ect. were communists and their acts were meant to build up to communism. They believed that a command economy with socialistic entities controlling industry were a good tool to do so (save for Marx). Their philosophy was not sincerly socialist however they simply saw it as a means to an ends. A step in the evolution towards their goal.
Seperatly, communism which can be described as a moneyless, stateless, classless system where resources are distributed according to need first then want and ability to redistribute is an anarchist solution. Sure, they never got there, but this is what they were trying to build towards. They were, fundamentally, anarchists. They simply believed that an authoritarian “vanguard” was needed to get society to a point where it could form this anarchistic solution by overthrowing the vanguard.
Lastly, syndicalism is arguably not an anarchistic movement as it’s not even really a cohesive idiology. It’s moreso descriptive of common ideas than proscriptive and can work with both a regulated economy with an organized government or without. Thus the term anarch-syndacalist
As for the naming I tend to agree. Though the reasoning for the name is understandable. Each had a different idea on how communism could be built and each (save for marx) were quite dependant on authoritarian, strong man tactics. On Marx though, he was the prodomenant speaker for the ideas put forward. The more generic idea present, communism, follows your prefered naming scheme.
Lastly, I’m certain I could find some mutualist variant, or market anarchist variant, named after it’s progenetor. Particularly if I were to look into anarch capitalism I’m sure it’s present
Okay, starting at the end there. Anarcho capitalism is not anarchism, and is besides the point when discussing any actually libertarian philosophy. Just gotta throw that out there. And while I’m sure you may be able to find some trend in the libertarian left that’s named for the thinker, the general trend is to name for the thought.
Also, re socialism vs communism: until Stalin, the terms were effectively synonyms. There were discussions of the higher and lower phases of socialism, but the idea that socialism is synonymous with the state capitalism of the USSR is something that came about when Stalin gave a speech and basically declared “we did. We achieved socialism.” In the anarchist tradition, we still use the terms as synonyms, because we don’t believe in the necessity of the transitionary state capitalist phase. The belief is that socialism (read: communism) can be achieved directly by the dismantling of the state apparatus and the creation of mutual aid networks and other alternative structures in its place. Notable, those structures need to be created before the state is dismantled. There’s a lot of quibbling here, because Marxist and anarchists use a different definition of what a state is, so in theory, they’re more compatible than most people belief.
Which brings up the next point:
They were fundamentally anarchists
Yes and no. While it’s true that they were believers in the possibility of a stateless, classless, moneyless society, the actual, functional difference between a communist and an anarchist is that an anarchist is a communist that believes we do not have to pass through some preordained transitionary state capitalism phase, and that we can achieve the goal of communism through direct action by the proletariat, and not have it delivered from above by a new class of revolutionaries and vanguardists. So yes, end goal is the same, the means separate the actors. Essentially, almost all anarchists are communists, not all communists are anarchists.
I respect your opinion on syndicalism, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Syndicalism is anarchist tactic, arguably the most successful anarchist tactic within the US and Canada, and represents the building of the new within the shell of the old. I get where you’re coming from, and I’ve heard the arguments before. They’ve never convinced me. Almost nobody has a problem considering platformism to be an anarchist philosophy, even if they disagree with it and hate it, but syndicalism gets called out as not being a cohesive ideology, and not an anarchist philosophy, or “just unionism,” but the primary difference between platformism and syndicalism are linguistic and the result of translation between English and Ukrainian.
I think you’re having some issues separating your specific ideas and ideology from definitions and history here. I’ll, much like you, start with your last statement. But not before thanking you for a well thought out response.
There are multiple forms of syndicalism that have existed throughout the years and though you may see them as building towards a noble goal of anarchism, that’s objectively not every instances goal nor is it needed for the definition. Sure, syndicalism is incredibly helpful to build an anarchist future, but it can also end up simply building a better future inside another system. It’s not about convincing you it’s about describing historic acts. Once more syndicalism is descriptive of a collection of similar movements. It is not something designed by a person or group. It’s descriptive, not proscriptive. Many, yes, are anarchist, but not all. Look at Canadian and American efforts who at the time were not called syndicalist but now are correctly classified as such. Look at the original french movements. This is not a calling out. Syndicalism is a fantastic method which brings out quite a lot of good. As for platformism, I’d agree, it’s a form of syndicalism.
This is like stating that a builder makes homes. Sure, they can make homes, and we can agree they should, but they can also create a company HQ. They’re still builders. One can say since they’re not working towards a goal we agree with they are not builders, but they wouldn’t be correct in a literal sense.
Now, onto socialism. As a socialist I resent the idea that socialism is synonomous with communism and disagree with it being historically thought of as such. Socialism has been distinctwidely known as distinct from communism since the 1840s, less than 10 years after it’s first usage.
I believe you to be confused too by what I mean. I do not believe Stalinist russia to be socialist. That fascist authoritarian, much like another, just used that word as a bludgeon and a rallying cry. Socialism is worker control, and ownership, over industry. That is all. Though there was quite alot of worker control under the USSR I would argue under command economics the true owner was the government. The workers still had alot more power over their workplace, thus my description of it being socialistic.
no, however, stalin did not make these terms different. they’ve been so since the 1840s and both marx and lenin described them as such.
Socialism has been, will be, and currently is a system where the workers have control and ownership over industry. I see no reason to conflate it with communism, a money-less, classless, stateless system where resources are distributed equitably. That would make the term meaningless.
Lastly, on anarchism, that is a word with a fairly well defined definition too. Anarchism is simply any anti-hirachical system that is fundamentally against any system of authority. We can agree that an anarcho-capitalist sociaty would quickly devolve into a system with well defined authorities but at that point it would nolonger be anarcho-capitalist. The system as defined is an anarchist solution. It’s just an increadibly stupid one that’ll instantly implode unlike more well thought out forms. I’ll be clear here, though I am not an anarchist I do see reason in the communist form of anarchist movements.
As for communism differing from anarchism, your example is a-historic. Since you speak on a vanguard party, I assume you mean leninism as marx did not write on this. Leninists, maoists, etc, did not believe it had to pass though capitalism. Quite the opposite they thought a vanguard party could skip this part. What you describe as anarchism, direct action by the prolatariate, is also part of leninism as he thought the same. He simply believed that the prolatariate needed to be spurred to action by increasing their quality of life and education before they overtake the vanguard party in a second, violant revolt. It seems that you do conflate the two ideas of anarchism and communism when it comes to the end goal though differentiate only on methodology. This is not the case however as one can have a system with no authority, no hyrarchy, which still has money as long as that money is evenly distributed and wealth isn’t allowed to accrue. Or, where a state still exists, but only exists through direct democracy on each action. Both would be poor solutions but still anarchist solutions.
Okay, there are several points here where I believe you are confused as to my meaning. Likely my fault for not being clear in my explanations.
I’d also like to thank you for your reply. I’d like to think of you as a comrade. While I’m not a ML or MLM, I do believe in left unity, to a greater or lesser extent.
Now I’d like to ask you a favor. I’m sick, and frankly, exhausted. I don’t have the energy to reply properly tonight. Mind giving this a bump tomorrow afternoon? 16ish hours from now, at your convenience. Otherwise, with the brain fog, I’ll forget.
Sorry for the delay, and for my misunderstanding. I’ll be clear it’s likely my fault I’m reading and responding on the go. Apologies for the mistakes in my writing too re-reading my reply was a chore. Thank you though, no matter our disagreements you seem like you just want a better world and I strongly believe we’re both working towards similar, valuable things. You seem like a chill person. No pressure to respond if you’re not up to it I know thinking while sick can be a painful experiance. If you do, my reply may be slow, power has been spotty with the storm here today
Not to insult anyone’s philosophies or anything, but it’s always weirded me out how socialists name their ideologies after people, instead of what they represent. Anarchist philosophies are called things like mutualism, market anarchist, syndicalism, platformism, et cetera. Socialist philosophies are Marxism, Leninism, De Leonism, et cetera. Again, not shitting on the philosophies themselves, just the naming tradition, and how psychologically I think that might help that whole image of dogmatic attachment to the thinker, instead of the thought.
Doesn’t seem weird to me. Things are routinely named after their creators/discoverers/proponents in STEM. Nobody thinks you’re being dogmatic if you talk about Newtonian gravity or Fourier transformations. Why should political philosophy be different?
It’s not that it seems to be weird, per se, more that it adds to that image of dogmatic attachment that leftists often have. In addition, cults of personality are a real thing, and sometimes it can be difficult to separate thinker from thought, especially when the thinker is centralized in the philosophy. At least, feels that way to me. In the stem fields, no one is going to argue that we must have a focus on God in the sciences, for instance, just because Newton was religious. That’s not the subject of discussion when talking about gravity, it’s containted pretty tightly to gravity and it’s explanation using observable, repeatable experimentation. Whereas it’s pretty common within Marxist communities that one must be an atheist to be a Marxist, as Marx was an atheist and talked about the abolishment of the church. Political philosophy isn’t as far removed from religious philosophy as we would often like to think.
Big ass asterisk on this comment: I’m currently sick, and feel like I’m not explaining myself well at all. Got that brain fog.
That which you describe is not socialism. Marx, Lenin, Mao, ho chi min, ect. were communists and their acts were meant to build up to communism. They believed that a command economy with socialistic entities controlling industry were a good tool to do so (save for Marx). Their philosophy was not sincerly socialist however they simply saw it as a means to an ends. A step in the evolution towards their goal.
Seperatly, communism which can be described as a moneyless, stateless, classless system where resources are distributed according to need first then want and ability to redistribute is an anarchist solution. Sure, they never got there, but this is what they were trying to build towards. They were, fundamentally, anarchists. They simply believed that an authoritarian “vanguard” was needed to get society to a point where it could form this anarchistic solution by overthrowing the vanguard.
Lastly, syndicalism is arguably not an anarchistic movement as it’s not even really a cohesive idiology. It’s moreso descriptive of common ideas than proscriptive and can work with both a regulated economy with an organized government or without. Thus the term anarch-syndacalist
As for the naming I tend to agree. Though the reasoning for the name is understandable. Each had a different idea on how communism could be built and each (save for marx) were quite dependant on authoritarian, strong man tactics. On Marx though, he was the prodomenant speaker for the ideas put forward. The more generic idea present, communism, follows your prefered naming scheme.
Lastly, I’m certain I could find some mutualist variant, or market anarchist variant, named after it’s progenetor. Particularly if I were to look into anarch capitalism I’m sure it’s present
Okay, starting at the end there. Anarcho capitalism is not anarchism, and is besides the point when discussing any actually libertarian philosophy. Just gotta throw that out there. And while I’m sure you may be able to find some trend in the libertarian left that’s named for the thinker, the general trend is to name for the thought.
Also, re socialism vs communism: until Stalin, the terms were effectively synonyms. There were discussions of the higher and lower phases of socialism, but the idea that socialism is synonymous with the state capitalism of the USSR is something that came about when Stalin gave a speech and basically declared “we did. We achieved socialism.” In the anarchist tradition, we still use the terms as synonyms, because we don’t believe in the necessity of the transitionary state capitalist phase. The belief is that socialism (read: communism) can be achieved directly by the dismantling of the state apparatus and the creation of mutual aid networks and other alternative structures in its place. Notable, those structures need to be created before the state is dismantled. There’s a lot of quibbling here, because Marxist and anarchists use a different definition of what a state is, so in theory, they’re more compatible than most people belief. Which brings up the next point:
Yes and no. While it’s true that they were believers in the possibility of a stateless, classless, moneyless society, the actual, functional difference between a communist and an anarchist is that an anarchist is a communist that believes we do not have to pass through some preordained transitionary state capitalism phase, and that we can achieve the goal of communism through direct action by the proletariat, and not have it delivered from above by a new class of revolutionaries and vanguardists. So yes, end goal is the same, the means separate the actors. Essentially, almost all anarchists are communists, not all communists are anarchists.
I respect your opinion on syndicalism, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Syndicalism is anarchist tactic, arguably the most successful anarchist tactic within the US and Canada, and represents the building of the new within the shell of the old. I get where you’re coming from, and I’ve heard the arguments before. They’ve never convinced me. Almost nobody has a problem considering platformism to be an anarchist philosophy, even if they disagree with it and hate it, but syndicalism gets called out as not being a cohesive ideology, and not an anarchist philosophy, or “just unionism,” but the primary difference between platformism and syndicalism are linguistic and the result of translation between English and Ukrainian.
I think you’re having some issues separating your specific ideas and ideology from definitions and history here. I’ll, much like you, start with your last statement. But not before thanking you for a well thought out response.
There are multiple forms of syndicalism that have existed throughout the years and though you may see them as building towards a noble goal of anarchism, that’s objectively not every instances goal nor is it needed for the definition. Sure, syndicalism is incredibly helpful to build an anarchist future, but it can also end up simply building a better future inside another system. It’s not about convincing you it’s about describing historic acts. Once more syndicalism is descriptive of a collection of similar movements. It is not something designed by a person or group. It’s descriptive, not proscriptive. Many, yes, are anarchist, but not all. Look at Canadian and American efforts who at the time were not called syndicalist but now are correctly classified as such. Look at the original french movements. This is not a calling out. Syndicalism is a fantastic method which brings out quite a lot of good. As for platformism, I’d agree, it’s a form of syndicalism.
This is like stating that a builder makes homes. Sure, they can make homes, and we can agree they should, but they can also create a company HQ. They’re still builders. One can say since they’re not working towards a goal we agree with they are not builders, but they wouldn’t be correct in a literal sense.
Now, onto socialism. As a socialist I resent the idea that socialism is synonomous with communism and disagree with it being historically thought of as such. Socialism has been distinctwidely known as distinct from communism since the 1840s, less than 10 years after it’s first usage.
I believe you to be confused too by what I mean. I do not believe Stalinist russia to be socialist. That fascist authoritarian, much like another, just used that word as a bludgeon and a rallying cry. Socialism is worker control, and ownership, over industry. That is all. Though there was quite alot of worker control under the USSR I would argue under command economics the true owner was the government. The workers still had alot more power over their workplace, thus my description of it being socialistic.
no, however, stalin did not make these terms different. they’ve been so since the 1840s and both marx and lenin described them as such.
Socialism has been, will be, and currently is a system where the workers have control and ownership over industry. I see no reason to conflate it with communism, a money-less, classless, stateless system where resources are distributed equitably. That would make the term meaningless.
Lastly, on anarchism, that is a word with a fairly well defined definition too. Anarchism is simply any anti-hirachical system that is fundamentally against any system of authority. We can agree that an anarcho-capitalist sociaty would quickly devolve into a system with well defined authorities but at that point it would nolonger be anarcho-capitalist. The system as defined is an anarchist solution. It’s just an increadibly stupid one that’ll instantly implode unlike more well thought out forms. I’ll be clear here, though I am not an anarchist I do see reason in the communist form of anarchist movements.
As for communism differing from anarchism, your example is a-historic. Since you speak on a vanguard party, I assume you mean leninism as marx did not write on this. Leninists, maoists, etc, did not believe it had to pass though capitalism. Quite the opposite they thought a vanguard party could skip this part. What you describe as anarchism, direct action by the prolatariate, is also part of leninism as he thought the same. He simply believed that the prolatariate needed to be spurred to action by increasing their quality of life and education before they overtake the vanguard party in a second, violant revolt. It seems that you do conflate the two ideas of anarchism and communism when it comes to the end goal though differentiate only on methodology. This is not the case however as one can have a system with no authority, no hyrarchy, which still has money as long as that money is evenly distributed and wealth isn’t allowed to accrue. Or, where a state still exists, but only exists through direct democracy on each action. Both would be poor solutions but still anarchist solutions.
Okay, there are several points here where I believe you are confused as to my meaning. Likely my fault for not being clear in my explanations.
I’d also like to thank you for your reply. I’d like to think of you as a comrade. While I’m not a ML or MLM, I do believe in left unity, to a greater or lesser extent.
Now I’d like to ask you a favor. I’m sick, and frankly, exhausted. I don’t have the energy to reply properly tonight. Mind giving this a bump tomorrow afternoon? 16ish hours from now, at your convenience. Otherwise, with the brain fog, I’ll forget.
Sorry for the delay, and for my misunderstanding. I’ll be clear it’s likely my fault I’m reading and responding on the go. Apologies for the mistakes in my writing too re-reading my reply was a chore. Thank you though, no matter our disagreements you seem like you just want a better world and I strongly believe we’re both working towards similar, valuable things. You seem like a chill person. No pressure to respond if you’re not up to it I know thinking while sick can be a painful experiance. If you do, my reply may be slow, power has been spotty with the storm here today