If you ever wanted to read about fake druids vs. environmental activists, now’s your chance.
Not paint, literally orange corn flour that’ll wash off with the first rain. Stop spreading disinformation for big oil pls. Idk why they went for this instead of classical art, but acting like this is some terrible evil crime is exactly what oil companies want you to think, they want you to root against people protesting climate change, no matter how tiny their vandalism is in the grand scheme of things
I can root for people protesting climate change and think this was incredibly idiotic.
The article says it came out of a spray can. So how am I spreading misinformation?
Not misinformation, disinformation. You read the article, yet choose to act like this is comparable to spray paint or something else that won’t immediately wash off. This is like getting indignant bc somebody threw a couple eggs at a great pyramid. It’s stupid and irrelevant to climate change, but sharing articles where the title says they threw acid instead of eggs is just fucking wrong, and serves no purpose besides discrediting climate activism
Edit actually this article says nothing about corn flour, sorry for accusing you of ignoring that. That’s super shady and shitty on the Guardian’s part, a detail that majorly changes how actually harmful this act was
Double edit you’re still acting like they threw actual paint, so nvm my apology. Stop being such a blatant oil shill
They posted the article with the headline completely unchanged. If you wanna be mad at someone, be mad at The Guardian.
I am for sure, all the articles I’ve seen on this have called it paint and it’s really disingenuous and frustrating. The way they describe it makes it sound like they took a can of paint and splashed it on the stones. I interpreted it that way at first and got pretty mad, imo there’s no good environmental message that’s sent by destroying the ruins of long dead civilizations. At least defacing classic European art can be seen as a protest against the colonialist attitudes that led to climate change, Idk how actually effective it is at forcing change but part of me gets some morbid satisfaction from it :3
Paint: a coloured substance which is spread over a surface and dries to leave a thin decorative or protective coating.
So in this case the cornstarch is the paint. No misinformation at all.
Nobody’s first thought when they read “paint” is corn flour that easily washes off. Headlines written like this play these kinds of semantics games with their headlines to drive angry engagement, or even to push a political agenda sometimes. The Guardian seems to run articles critical of the oil industry fairly often so maybe this isn’t sinister like that, I’d have to do more research on The Guardian and the article’s author to get an idea
It’s stone. Stone is full of cracks. It will get into those cracks and not wash off.
Furthermore, environmentalists pissing people off in the middle of a religious ceremony does nothing to help with an environmental cause. That’s the way PETA goes about doing things. Do you think they’ve been remotely effective?
You know what else will get into the cracks?
Rain. To wash it off.
That’s really not how things work. We know a lot about ancient foods specifically because they get stuck in cracks in tools and we can get them out and study them. The rain didn’t get the tiny flecks of wheat out of the cracks.
“The rain didn’t get the tiny flecks of wheat out of the cracks” Yet somehow it’s clean. Why are you continuing to act like this is comparable to actual paint? You’re whining about something that’s literally not a deal in the slightest, you really should stop making free propaganda for oil companies
slight wording edit at the start
Maybe if you had given me that article before you started berating me for not knowing what I was talking about, I might have been educated on the subject.
Are you really not able to talk to people without insulting them?
What is it the activists wanted people to think? Did they consider their actions might lead people to turn against them instead of against the oil companies?
Those stones will be suuuper useful to us after we died because our global ecosystem collapsed.
Maybe we should set up our own stones for explaining to future generations why we didnt do anything about climate change until it was too late.
I’m not sure how this helps though. These people can say to future generations, “well, we didn’t get people to stop using fossil fuels, but we did damage a 5000-year-old monument that was made long before anyone had the idea of burning fossil fuels to make people aware of a problem they were already aware of but powerless to do anything about.”
This isn’t going to stop oil companies from drilling for oil.
It reminds me of a friend of mine I used to follow elsewhere on social media. Every day, she would post pictures of ‘death row dogs’ in nearby shelters that were going to be euthanized. There was fuck all I could do about it. I already have two dogs, from shelters. I don’t have room for more and I couldn’t afford more. So all it did was make me feel like shit. Then she started posting photos with “too late” messages and I stopped following her.
How does that help?
but we did damage a 5000-year-old monument
As far as I could find out, they used orange cornflour that will just wash off the next time it rains. The most amount of damage anyone could seriously bring up was that it could harm/displace the lichen on the henge.
That’s not to say that I specifically condone the action, but it’s a lot less bad than this article makes it sound. It’s the same with the soup attack on one of van Gogh’s painting, which had protective glass on it. So far all the JSO actions targeting cultural/historical things (at least the ones that made it to the big news) have been done in a way that makes them sound awful at first hearing, but intentionally did not actually damage the targeted cultural/historical thing.
I think the biases of the journalist/news outlet/etc. are somewhat exposed by which parts they focus on and which they downplay or omit entirely.
I hope you’re right because this article says they used a spray can.
Also, orange dye can easily get into cracks in the rocks and stay there for a very long time. Especially if it displaces the lichens. That won’t make it collapse, so maybe ‘damage’ is not the right word, but this is potentially long-lasting vandalism which, as far as I can see, will have no effect on the actual problem.
I hope you’re right because this article says they used a spray can.
Which brings me back to the last point in my comment.
I also hope I’m right. The two times I looked into it (right after the attack and before writing my comment) both came up with that result. Also it seems that English Heritage came out today saying there was “No visible damage”.
As I said, I’m not writing to defend the action, just pointing out that the OP article is, willfully or not, omitting certain aspects that could make JSO look a little bit better.
Edit: Formatting
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Many of the recent protests about climate change have been less direct and more about stirring up controversy to force the public to actually think about their decisions.
My hat off to them as so far this style of protest has been working and has resulted in many of us pushing for better climate control.
You’re right this isn’t going to stop companies, but even if you disagreed with them it puts climate change in your conscious mind. Even if that simply means you’ll try to make slightly more climate friendly decisions moving forwards, that’s a win.
Personally I don’t know if I agree with the technique, but I do feel like it has been working in terms of making people discuss this topic more.
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Your example shows exactly what people are missing. Just because you did not have the capacity for more dogs doesnt mean that other people never got convinced to save one of those dogs. If those pictures convinced even just one person to adopt a dog, then it was worth the minor inconvienience that you had to go through.
Similarly the actual damage from this protest is slim to none (if they used the same stuff as usual that just washes away with water) and if it convinces somebody to get politically active for climate change then it was already worth it.
You thinking that you are powerless, shouldnt result in other people being forced to be powerless when they are not.
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A better way to propose your question is: out of all the millions of people on Earth who hear about these activities, will literally 0 of them take any meaningful action against climate change?
The likelihood of that quite small, suggesting a non-zero value. That non-zero value is likely to be smaller than the damages of water-washable paint.
I’m not advocating for anyone here, but I think that’s the calculus OP was suggesting, and it makes perfect sense to me.
If eye-rolling and annoyance produced greenhouse gases, then it might be a different story.
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How does that help?
We’re talking about it
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“The orange cornflour we used to create an eye-catching spectacle will soon wash away with the rain…"
will soon wash away with the rain…"
Just like any attention they may have grabbed due to their stunt.
For the record, I’m not saying I agree with their methods, but I don’t think it’s fair to them either that everyone is acting like they did irreparable harm to the monument.
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But it also stops us from talking about anything else. Part of this is not allowing other things to take over. Yes it would be even better if the discussion focussed on a productive way forward. It would be worse if we were discussing something else.
And therein lies the problem with today’s generations. Instead of doing the hard work of getting involved in civic groups and local politics in order to mobilize voters and enact real, substantive change, we’re taking the short cut by spraying shit on the walls so no one can talk about anything else.
You made my point very succinctly, so thanks for that.
Oh I see we are at the “this generation is lazy” level of discussion. Have a nice day.
I’d say spraying colored powder on archeological sites and art galleries instead of getting involved in civic action to enact societal and economic change counts as lazy, yes.
Just stop oil is funded by the oil industry to make environmentalists look like morons.
As always, while I support their claimed ideals, I can only see them as petty vandals who care more about attention seeking than their cause. They certainly won’t get any of my time or attention. If you’re against Big Oil, protest Big Oil and half the population will agree. If you’re intentionally seeking my outrage with unrelated crap, you got it: rot in jail
It’s orange power which washed off with water
They do it because the stuff you’re asking for doesn’t work that well, but this does (that said they do still engage in those actions as far as I’m aware). Activism is about making noise, there aren’t many tools beyond that and they’ve worked for all sorts of issues in the past.
The point is that JSO doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
https://wagingnonviolence.org/2023/12/the-method-behind-just-stop-oil-annoying-madness/
the stuff you’re asking for doesn’t work that well, but this does
I didn’t think that this works. The examples where people claim “is just like this” I don’t see as being like this.
The ones that work are ones that have some relation to their cause. Forcing everyone to really think about an issue Inherent to the act. For example, going about and doing this to parked private jets, which they did.
Just doing anything to get attention isn’t useful if there’s no Inherent message in the act itself. Especially with climate where everyone already has awareness, just not action.
Being merely loud is not going to sway hearts and minds in your favor.
Yeah I don’t know why they wouldn’t block the entrance to an oil refinery. Some people would be unhappy about this especially the people that work there. But the general public could understand, who knows it could possibly slow production for a few days.
They have. Compared to this, it got barely any news coverage.
That is why they do this. Their only goal is attention, and they do that quite well.
The way they seem to operate is quite smart, actually:
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Their stunts get a lot of press and bring climate change to the forefront of people’s minds, frequently.
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They’re not a political party, so pissing voters off isn’t a problem. They can afford to be unpopular to further the cause.
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Those who already care about the climate won’t change that based on a small group they dislike.
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Those who call them “terrorists” are people who call anything short of licking oil company boot “eco-terrorism”. They were never going to be convinced to care whatever the group does. Probably read the Daily Mail.
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Those who are apathetic about the climate are still going to be apathetic, with a bit of rage towards this group as with the others, but again, ultimately that doesn’t matter as they still won’t change anything based on a single group.
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A small handful of people will be inspired by them and their constant reminders of climate crisis, and be motivated to push for change.
The last bullet seems to be the target audience of the group. And they’re the ones who will actually do anything.
What cause are they furthering though?
Inspiring people to act against climate change.
Their only goal is attention
This is not scammy advertising where “any attention is good attention”. This is an important cause where we need to build support
They can afford to be unpopular to further the cause.
Sure, no donations, no popular support, they can just be marginalized and ignored as a bunch of extremists. Everyone cheers when the cops cart them off to jail. Yay for attention though
Those who are apathetic about the climate are still going to be apathetic, with a bit of rage
This is where they’re wrong, and where I’m especially frustrated when it’s a cause I agree with. All those middle ground or non-active people who could be wooed as supporters, will now dismiss the cause as a bunch of annoying kooks. Nobody caused change by driving away potential supporters
They silence a lot of people fighting for climate change by making it harder for everyone to discuss this. They make it much harder every time they pull one of these stunts. Its not smart unless you’re talking about the oil industry execs funding them
“Silence”? How?
They don’t make it harder to discuss climate change. People don’t just go “a small group I hate cares about climate change so now I don’t care”. And if they do, well, they never actually cared about the climate. They cared about looking good and were never going to help with anything.
And stop with the conspiracy that they’re funded by oil executives. The organisation of the granddaughter of an oil billionaire (who is dead) funds 2% of them. Because, children and grandchildren, believe it or not, can disagree with their elders.
People don’t just go “a small group I hate cares about climate change so now I don’t care”.
No they don’t, but if I want to talk about the same cause to try to change people’s minds, instead I have to explain away a bunch of extremists and try to get them to take the cause seriously despite those extremists
It’s 100% not a conspiracy and you can go back to find many climate organizations have been infiltrated by agent provocateurs since the 70s. The FBI sent a guy in had a kid and pulled him out leaving an entire family. Industries have lots of leaked documents showing their support for these groups because they’re so unpalatable to the average person.
These groups behavior often make it harder. It distracts from the fight and puts a giant clown hat on the whole issue. People will argue “it’s not permanent damage” without realizing the point that underlies that. This is about image. Its not about actual effect. Image is valuable and these people think that damaging the image somehow is the key to action because it gets people talking. Its not the 70s anymore everyone knows. We need these groups to be more self aware and create civil action to get people on board instead of making it unpalatable. Or just stop and give room for groups or drive positive change.
many climate organizations have been infiltrated
Ok but:
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you’re talking about the US, JSO is UK based
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It is a conspiracy theory because you have no hard evidence that JSO is infiltrated and having it’s strings pulled by big oil like you claim
It distracts from the fight
No I’d actually argue it brings the fight to the forefront of people’s minds, specifically the people who are actually inclined to do something. Those who do nothing but complain about climate activism were never going to do anything useful and so their thoughts on the methods are frankly irrelevant since the methods work for those who actually want to act.
We need these groups to be more self aware and create civil action to get people on board instead of making it unpalatable.
They’ve blockaded oil terminals and vandalised terrible offenders driving climate change, and still do. It was nowhere near as effective as their publicity stunts, which get people talking. They just ended up getting whisked away by police and largely ignored by the news. Pointless.
Whether you like it or not, the sort of quiet, non-inconvenient activism you seem to be proposing has shown itself to be useless.
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Why not fund raise and set up a lobby group and fund politicians to pass laws. Why stand in traffic. Seems like the most ineffective backward steps
Why not fund raise and set up a lobby group and fund politicians to pass laws.
Do you think some kids are going to be able to buy the support of politicians by outbidding the oil companies?
Do you think some kids are going to be able to buy the support of politicians by outbidding the oil companies?
Politicians care about votes, money is just an easy way to get them. No, a bunch of kids by themselves brings nothing to the table. A bunch of extremists probably never gets to the table. Do you know what’s the only thing that may outrank those corporate interests? Votes. If you bring votes to the table they don’t even have to buy, you’ll get a response
Notice what’s being discussed here. You claim this type of action gets people talking but no one here is discussing their cause nor supporting it
Yeah because these people are making random attacks on landmarks instead of going after oil refineries and gas stations. Their strategy is confusing to the general public.
Targeting oil companies directly would force people to talk about the actual issue. “These radicals put orange dust on Stonehenge what are they trying to accomplish with that?” vs. “these radicals got an oil refinery shut down for a day, what are they trying to accomplish with that?” The former requires an abstract explanation (which isn’t effective) while the latter has a very obvious answer to the point where most people won’t even bother asking the question.
One hopes the powder doesn’t cause any lasting damage to a priceless piece of human cultural heritage.
That is my worry. Even if it gets washed off by rain, it can get into cracks.
Eh.
That, too, is the history of the monuments.
That doesn’t justify it.
…while I may not like the forms their protest takes, I think - well, they certainly think - it’s worth your ire if it opens people’s eyes to the oncoming worldwide disaster.
suspect they’re right.
Whose eyes do you think aren’t open at this point that this stunt would open them?
Like I said elsewhere, this is like what PETA does and people are still eating a lot of meat.
So you really think you understand what’s going on?
because the scientists are scared shitless.
dunk on peta all you want, it’s not going to stop the world cooking.
These activists make fighting to end climate change harder every time they pull this shit. It’s pure asshole behaviour.
At this point I feel like it’s akin to art that people just don’t get. The average person doesn’t understand the message or point.
These protestors are committing simple acts that threaten to damage something that people value. People are so very angry that biodegradable paint was sprayed on an ancient monument, or that soup was tossed onto the glass protecting a famous painting.
Yet they continue on with their lives and refuse to hold many corporations accountable while those corporations make our planet less habitable. This would become a wall of text that nobody would read if I tried to just outline the existential threat human society faces thanks to the reckless behavior of many of the organizations. The suffering, loss of life, economic damage… unimaginable… yet we are basically barreling toward that inevitability at full steam.
But I’m sorry, how silly of me. How could I forget that some scientists might lose the opportunity to study undisturbed lichen on Stonehenge this year.
People are so very angry that biodegradable paint was sprayed on an ancient monument, or that soup was tossed onto the glass protecting a famous painting.
What is so maddening about this comment is how much it proves my point that you don’t see. You need to accept it doesn’t matter if the overall damage is none existent. Just like how a magician is never in danger or a wrestler isn’t getting punched in the head. And we’re all still left with strong feelings and compel us, sometimes even to action.
The real danger is not as important as the perceived danger. You’re showing something to so many people that the average opinions becomes very important and the average opinion doesn’t view this favorably. This is obvious to everybody but the activists who convince themselves this is the height of civil action.
And the end result is scientists don’t get funding. Scientist funding is funded through public interests. Organizations, industry and taxes go to fund research. And when activists start stirring shit up, it makes many shrinking back like turtle heads until it blows over.
What is so maddening about this comment is how much it proves my point that you don’t see.
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This was literally the first sentence of my post. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear enough and “maddened you”.
At this point I feel like it’s akin to art that people just don’t get. The average person doesn’t understand the message or point.
I personally don’t often enjoy art. In particular, the art where the artists are creating some kind of layered metaphor like a blank canvas with a cryptic title or something. The artist might be trying to communicate that consumerism will never fill our need for social contact or whatever but the message is lost on me.
The same thing applies here for most people I think. However, for once I actually see a meaning in it. I get horrified by the act, then I read later how little actual damage is done. Then I reflect on it and realize there is no way the protestors didn’t know that the Mona Lisa was protected by glass. There is no way they accidentally used the least harmful bright paint they could find on Stonehenge… and it occurs to me that I was so immediately upset at the perceived harm but have become desensitized to news of the actual harm of climate change.
I’m not stating that this message is obvious or that people are stupid if they are angry - I’m stating it gets lost and most people don’t get it. Yes, I’m a bit angry that the media often never mentions up front how little damage is done in any headlines I see. It’s usually “climate activists throw soup on Mona Lisa, arrested, condemned by bystanders and art lovers everywhere” not “activists harmlessly throw soup on painting protected by glass to demonstrate humanity’s questionable priorities”. Sure, the glass can be in the article somewhere but nobody bothers to read that far.
Regardless, I agree that the end result isn’t helping because most people don’t understand. I, however, sympathetic with the activists and felt compelled to explain the message as I saw it.
What is most interesting to me is that the “powers that be” have so much influence over the news that I feel like harmless acts of protests have lost their power and are demonized by default. Climate change, income inequality, police abuse, Gaza… I’m honestly concerned that people with very legitimate concerns (at least, in my mind) will have to further escalate their actions in order to feel heard. This is just the beginning I think.
“I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.” MLK
Man big oil has it easy with all these slacktivists shitting in public and calling it a protest.
They’re terrorists.
Not activists, terrorists.
That word… I do not think it means what you think it means…
