Summary

Rafael Grossi, head of the IAEA, called Germany’s decision to fully phase out nuclear power “illogical,” noting it is the only country to have done so.

Despite the completed phase-out in 2023, there is renewed debate in Germany about reviving nuclear energy due to its low greenhouse gas emissions.

Speaking at COP29, Grossi described reconsidering nuclear as a “rational” choice, especially given global interest in nuclear for emissions reduction.

Germany’s phase-out, driven by environmental concerns and past nuclear disasters, has been criticized for increasing reliance on Russian gas and missing carbon reduction opportunities.

  • ValiantDust
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    9 days ago

    Pumping all of our waste into the atmosphere is a much better solution!

    I never said that. But there are ways we have to do neither. Why not concentrate on those, especially since they are magnitudes cheaper.

    If we had started building them the first time that question was asked we’d have them by now.

    That might be true, but how is that helping us right now? That’s why I said it doesn’t matter how the horse died. It’s dead now. There are many faster solutions, why take the one that takes longest?

    • tb_@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      It’s dead now

      But what if it turns out we do need it in 10 years?

      All renewable everything is cool, but that’s also going to require a lot of storage for the days where it isn’t so windy or sunny. I think having nuclear to cover (some of) the base load on the grid will be very helpful.

      • leisesprecher
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        9 days ago

        And I think, you have absolutely no idea how incredibly expensive nuclear power is.

        Solar power is literally free during the day in Germany right now. Investing a few hundred million in storage is much much much cheaper and easier to scale than building a nuclear power plant that will only start producing energy in 20 years or so.

        • tb_@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          And I think, you have absolutely no idea how incredibly expensive nuclear power is.

          Less expensive than whatever the fuck we’ve been doing with our climate these last 100 years. But those aren’t direct costs, so who the hell cares.

          • DerGottesknecht
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            9 days ago

            But still more expensive than renewables + storage, so what’s your point?

            • tb_@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              The costs of climate change are costs the people and our governments have to bear; just look at the billions in damage done by the recent hurricanes.

              Those costs are a subsidy to the “cheap” fossil fuels we’ve been using. In fact, fossil fuels receive a ton of subsidies upfront too. Nuclear can be subsidised too.

              I don’t have faith our governments will switch to 100% renewable, and any fossil fuel is too much fossil fuel given how far we have already gone. We need to actively start scrubbing CO2 out of the atmosphere, and we’re going to need as much power as we can generate for that.

              Nuclear is expensive because it’s relatively rare. Economies of scale don’t apply to it as is. If we start building, it will become cheaper. Not cheap, perhaps, but cheaper. And it’s a cost worth paying. We are already paying the price for the “cheap” fossil fuels.

              • DerGottesknecht
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                8 days ago

                I don’t have faith our governments will switch to 100% renewable,

                But you have faith they will be responsible for a nuclear power plant and won’t allow any shortcuts in maintenance and keep it safe?

                We need to actively start scrubbing CO2 out of the atmosphere, and we’re going to need as much power as we can generate for that.

                Technical scrubbing is way to inefficient. It is powers of magnitude more efficient to invest in plants which build up the humus layer of fields, you can store way more CO2 that way.

                Nuclear is expensive because it’s relatively rare. Economies of scale don’t apply to it as is. If we start building, it will become cheaper. Not cheap, perhaps, but cheaper. And it’s a cost worth paying. We are already paying the price for the “cheap” fossil fuels.

                But if we spend the same amount of money for renewables+storage we get more power per dollar.

      • ValiantDust
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        9 days ago

        But what if it turns out we do need it in 10 years?

        That’s the point, we likely wouldn’t have any new nuclear power plants in ten years, even if we started planning them now. The one they are building in the UK was started somewhere around 2017 I think and maybe, fingers crossed, it might be finished by 2029. Right now the estimated cost is around £46 billion, up from originally about £23 billion.

        That’s one plant. We need many more for any relevant effect. Not even starting on the fact that nuclear energy is very inadequate for balancing out short term differences in the grid since you can’t just quickly power them up or down as needed.

    • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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      9 days ago

      I never said that. But there are ways we have to do neither. Why not concentrate on those, especially since they are magnitudes cheaper.

      FSS I hate discussions with people… You can do more than one thing. You could have concentrated on both nuclear AND renewables and stopped burning COAL - but no, instead Germany had a fucking uptick in coal power while dropping the much cleaner nuclear.

      This was so foreseeable it hurts. Renewables simply aren’t up to the task of baseload generation yet in the way that nuclear is.

      • ValiantDust
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        9 days ago

        I also hate discussions with people who miss my point and argue against things I never claimed.

        • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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          9 days ago

          Actually coal consumption is down to the level of the 1960s.

          Yes, it’s down since the 1960s. If this is your level of understanding I don’t expect this to go well… 🙄

          It shot up between 2020 and 2023 (4th chart here): https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts

          Yes other things were happening, yes other values are moving up (renewables - yay!). But with no nuclear to fall back on Coal plants had to fire up to bear the burden of pressure on other fuels.

          Nuclear is clean. Coal is certainly not clean.

          Edit: also - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-approves-bringing-coal-fired-power-plants-back-online-this-winter-2023-10-04/

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            8 days ago

            How much of that is due to French nuclear reactors shutting down, both during summer (to not turn the rivers that cool them into fish soup) as well as all that maintenance stuff they had going on lately.

            Germany is an electricity exporter.

            Also: You’re looking at generated power. Not coal consumption. That doesn’t completely erase the bump but it’s quite a bit smaller, they shut down some very old plants and replaced them with more efficient ones.

            The current biggest chunk is oil, mostly used in transportation, and gas, for heating. Those will need to be electrified and replaced with what 25% of their Joule-value in electricity production, gas will stay longest because it’s used for peaker plants and, once the grid is completely renewable, that will be done with synthesised gas.

            Had the original plan to phase out nuclear and coal been followed we’d already be there but the CDU insisted on knee-capping renewables because the likes of RWE were asleep at the wheel and hadn’t shifted their investments fast enough, electricity production in Germany suddenly wasn’t an oligopoly, any more, can’t have that.

            • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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              8 days ago

              You’re making excuses for burning coal. I’m saying they shouldn’t be burning it at all.

              Why the hell did they ban nuclear before coal anyway? That was just stupid.

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                8 days ago

                IIRC according to the original plan the last coal plants would’ve shut down before the last nuclear plants. Certainly would’ve been possible without 16 years of CDU government.