The French government issued a decree Tuesday banning the term “steak” on the label of vegetarian products, saying it was reserved for meat alone.
What a strange thing to be pedantic about
Oh we’re good at this. In the whole EU it’s not allowed to print ‘milk’ or ‘cheese’ on something that doesn’t contain actual animal’s milk. Want to sell soy milk? Ok but don’t call it that way…
Except for coconut milk, because reasons.
Yea there are some exceptions for traditional products https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2010/791/oj
Sorry you are saying you can’t call something that is not cheese ‘cheese’? Preposterous.
Well to be precise you’re not allowed to label any agricultural product cheese that wasn’t made of milk.
There are only some exceptions for traditional things like Leberkäse
It actually is allowed for German “Scheuermilch” (“scouring cream”, which is a cleaning detergent, literal translation: “scrubbing milk”).
The law only addresses agricultural products but yeah there are exceptions for products that were traditional before the law was passed
Oh hell. I’ve been drinking Scheuermilch! I thought it was a bit crunchy
At least, your teeth or what’s left of them is pretty white.
And we had this minister for transport Scheuer…
But his name doesn’t come from Scheuermilch, it’s rather an abbreviation of “bescheuert” - bonkers.
Germany has a whole line of not milks, almost chicken, like chicken, thun visch and i can almost be certain i saw mjolk and moloko somehwere. I always chuckle a bit when i see it.
Not to mention Vozzarella
Smells a little fishy, I assume
I can tell you a little about how Germany does this and I think the rest of the EU & France should be similar. There is a government body defining what specific foods are and if your food doesn’t match that, you can’t name it like the food in question. And that does make sense - butter has to be made from milk and not some palm oil mixed together by shady businesses and milk has to come from an animal and can’t be water & white paint.
This does make sense and really protects the consumer. It does - however - really run into problems when dealing with those vegetarian meat replacements. It would make sense to sell a “vegetarian ham”, but ham has an exact, legal definition and part of that definition is that ham has to contain meat.
A milk is what I mix with my cereal, pour in my coffee, use in a pancake mixture and so on. I can’t see any logic behind limiting this to animal products other than a political agenda.
I find it helpful to have the thing being imitated as part of the name, but not the full name. It makes for an easy way to know what the taste and texture should be and how it can be used in cooking. My kid developed a dairy allergy recently and vegan butter in particular is so easy to substitute in old favorite recipes without changing the flavor much or cooking method. As for meat imitations, a “vegetarian steak” (or ham) label conveys a lot about the texture, moisture, saltiness, and cooking techniques you can expect to use while a generic name such as “plant protein block” leaves you much more clueless as to what the texture and cooking method is meant to be for that item. I don’t think it should be legal to sell plant substitutes as only “steak “ or “butter”, but calling it “plant steak” or “plant butter” is way more straightforward and easy to fit on a label than a lengthy description of “plant patty with a fibrous, chewy texture and savory flavor resembling steak.”
And that does make sense - butter has to be made from milk
cries in coal butter
It isn’t
You don’t want to be tricked into eating something else than you intended. Even ignoring the whole value of eating meat argument, there is an allergy problem in play
And, I’ve noticed that vegetarian products are being hidden more and more insidiously over the years. It’s intentionally misleading and potentially harmful
No one ever bought vegan steak thinking it was meat. And calling it a vegan steak perfectly explains what kind of product you’re looking at.
That’s just false. I’ve seen multiple people including myself and my so make that mistake multiple times.
Maybe it’s packaged more clearly where you’re from, but over here the difference is quite subtle
You buy steak without caring from what animal but get triggered if it’s not meat?
Nice assumption. I can tell a pork steak from eg. a beef one by looking at it. If it’s sold as steak and doesn’t say something like marinated, I am safe to assume that there is no list of ingredients to check. This is true in Australia and Europe supermarkets. Just a fucking piece of meat. 3 seconds decision while you move on with your shopping.
A meatless product made to look like a beef steak can easily look like a beef steak. So no, until yesterday you didn’t need a microscope to ‘care’ what animal it was you were buying. Now I need to make sure that it’s actual fucking meat. That’s where making mislabelling illegal does help.
I’d love to see the reaction of the vegans if someone was sneaking in meat or eggs in products labelled as vegan.
You’re only assuming that those minced meat is beef when you pick it. It’s pretty dumb running through the world with closed eyes and demanding everyone to counteract your shortcoming. I’m sure youre able to read.
I’d love to see the reaction of the vegans if someone was sneaking in meat or eggs in products labelled as vegan.
Lol what’s wrong with your mind do you really think vegetables somehow hurt you?
No I love vegetables, it’s just that I like to choose and I hate processed foods. Most important I like to know what I am buying and stop customer shaming, I shouldn’t need to read the fine print because some scanmers are trying to sell shit for something else.
Good follow-up though with your question about vegetables, I go through the veggie aisle and grab a head of broccoli. Am I allowed to assume it’s a fucking broccoli or do I need to read the fine print too? How would vegetarians/vegans (or anyone really) feel if the head of broccoli was plunged in pig fat and sold just as broccoli. And everyone on lemmy was just ‘get over it it’s still broccoli, it’s a word you don’t own it’ and some other bullshit about shortcomings.
The European union has some pretty strong regulations around food and mislabelling. Sorry doesn’t work that way, you can’t blame a customer for not reading the fine printing.
ITT: Vegans with a chip on their shoulder demanding that stuff they want to buy be labelled the same as stuff they don’t want to buy.
Next up: People demanding that meat be labelled cauliflower to fight fire with fire. I mean it’s special meat engineered to have the texture and taste of cauliflower, why shouldn’t it be labelled cauliflower?
It had to be labeled meat cauliflower and seems to be reasonable to call it that way. But wait till you hear about coconut milk or even worse meat-cheese (Leberkäs/Fleischkäse - traditional german sausage with no cheese what so ever).
It’s a stupid comment anyway because no one would ever label cauliflower as anything but cauliflower.
Parents to make their children eat it?
I have never seen a plant based product labeled the same as a animal product. What I see is is [Beef steak] or [Plant based Steak made from…]
Vegan products have a clear label on them and they want you to know that it plant based because people buy it for that reason, be it to avoid animal cruelty, the destruction of the environment or their own health.
Vegan products have a clear label on them
And why shouldn’t meat products have a clear label?
Yes, I think I advocated here alone two to three times for that and I will stay by your side if you do demand that.
We could make it easier for all with a “animal product” label but at the moment it is only the animal industry which is lobbying for restrictive product names.
If you don’t want to then legislate for a label like the (V)egan label and put it on all products made from animals, I would still support you.
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based.
That kind of label already exists: It resembles the shape of the letters “Steak” so closely one might even mistake it for the word.
Why, pray tell, are you insistent on diluting the clarity of that label? Is it so aesthetically pleasing to you that you just cannot help yourself but enjoy it even though you don’t want to have to do anything with meat?
Well, I guess it shows that some people learn only shapes instead of reading.
Still unclear who was killed, maybe there are some more shapes around? They indicate what Animal it was, you know there is more than one?
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “pig” and replace it with “saitan” for example? Mind blown, if you put 2 or more of these cryptic runes together we can transport more information.
I don’t care much for it, it is for those who want to stop supporting the destruction of the planet and the murdering of billions of sentient beings for their pleasure. It makes it easier for them if they don’t have to change too much.
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “pig” and replace it with “saitan” for example? Mind blown,
Now imagine if you will, we could use that space where it says “organic” and replace it with “pork”, for example? “pork cauliflower”. Makes perfect sense.
I don’t care much for it, it is for those who want to stop supporting the destruction of the planet and the murdering of billions of sentient beings
No. It is for people who want to proclaim superior morality but are too lazy to switch their shopping habits from “steak” to “soy patty”. If y’all are so virtuous that should really not be an issue for you.
Who do you think acts more superior, those who kill others for pleasure and destroy the ground, water and air by doing so, or those who don’t need that? Lion on top of the food chain, thats what you are, right?
This is so stupid and a collosal waste of time. Do they really feel people are just so stupid they can’t figure their stuff out for themselves?
Also, and I cant stress this enough, they are just wrong.
Not in France, but as a meat eater I am starting to get annoyed at misleading labelling. Can I eventually figure out that what’s in my hands in the supermarket aisle is some sort of meat substitute? Sure, I’d like not waste my time though and others might be in a rush, distracted or you know mislead.
Have you come up with a great new meat free product? Awesome, find a catchy new namenand market it, you don’t need to piggy bag on steak or bacon that have a pretty specific meaning to consumers.
Also, are you a rabid vegan that hates everything meat related? Why would you want to buy and eat something called bacon?
Edit: also you are correct that this is a colossal waste of time. Customers time. France and other countries with a gastronomic culture like italy take food and food related frauds pretty seriously. And IMO they are right. Want to sell some new experimental shit? Be my guest, as a customer I should be able to opt in, not have to opt out.
I would like to buy something called bacon because I like bacon? You can like meat and still be vegan. Most vegans are vegan because of animal cruelty and climate impact, not because they hate meat. I can only speak for my country, but here such products are all on the same shelf and are clearly labeled as vegetarian/vegan. It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don’t want to have to decipher what it’s supposed to be first.
It makes sense to call it vegan bacon or vegan steak because it clearly imitates the meat product and I don’t want to have to decipher what it’s supposed to be first.
It makes sense to call it sex because it clearly imitates sex and I don’t want to decipher what “masturbation” means first.
Words have fucking meaning. They need to have for communication to not break down. Don’t get your recipe book in a twist if people like their meaning to stay the same.
Words do have meaning, but that meaning is not set in stone. I’d argue that plant based sausages, schnitzel, burgers, steaks, bacon etc. are still just that. It’s more about the form factor than what exactly it’s made of.
It should of course clearly be stated on the package what’s inside.
I don’t see how “Vegan Bacon” might be a problem.It’s more about the form factor than what exactly it’s made of.
It makes sense to call it a woman because it clearly has a hole and I don’t want to decipher what “fleshlight” means.
EDIT: Oh, du sprichst deutsch. Bratling. Is das denn so schwer.
I don’t think you argue in good faith. Also, Bratling is not a good word for many vegan meat substitutes.
Oh I do I’m just being crass. Let me try again:
It makes sense to call it a beer because it comes in a bottle and I don’t want to decipher what “alcoholic soda with artificial flavour” means.
…are there any substitutes that are neither Bratling nor Saitan (which is well-established?). Don’t buy the latter and make the former myself so I wouldn’t know. In my mind substitutes have no place in proper recipes but that’s a personal thing, a Bratling doesn’t try to be meat it just tries, and succeeds, at being a Frikadelle – something that you can put on a bun, or eat cold, or drench in sauce, really it’s astonishing how interchangeable the two are precisely because a good Bratling doesn’t try to imitate a product, but replicate a function.
What is the meaning of steak? Is it enough to kill some animal and write steak on the package? Or do you care which animal it was? If you don’t buy [generic steak] you likely would want to know which animal the flesh is from and it requires another word to describe it. Horse steak is as fine of a descritption as saitan steak.
This https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/steak
And I can tell which animal it was by just looking at it both the look of the meat and the cut. Unless it’s not meat and it’s designed to look like a (usually beef) steak, in which case I might be induced to think it’s a beef steak. Which is the whole point here, France is regulating so this does not happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak
Steaks are cut from animals including cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo,[1][2] sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, and deer, as well as various types of fish, especially salmon and large fish such as swordfish, shark, and marlin.
So you can distinct between all these animals flesh but you feel challanged to read “plant based meat”
Oh good lord, you all have the same edgy argument on this thread. Are you gonna tell me that I need to learn how to read next, or that I am an idiot, and that the problem is just me?
Millions of people buy their meat as I just described. They expect to be able to do so moving forward. If youbare used to grab a head of broccoli and move on why do you need someone to start questioning how you chose it, how do you really knownits not cabbage, and really don’t you even read if it’s organic or where it comes from?
Yes in many cases the label can be misleading. A whole country just legislated about it. I’m not french but agree this is the right decision.
I’m all for veganism and vegetarianism. And for plant based products. I also like to fuckong know what I am buying without having to dissect it.
Then buy bacon. Or go online and try to find some info about what could resemble bacon in your country/area. Don’t see why all fucking people that have been buying bacon expecting to buy bacon now need to sift through other stuff to find, you know, bacon.
Doesn’t really matter the reason why vegans are vegans. You made a choice, deal with it and I am not saying this in a snarky way, we shouldn’t change the meaning orlf word and mislabel food because of your choice and your personal tastes that still lean towards bacon - I can’t blame you for that BTW
I don’t understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won’t buy “real” bacon because it’s terrible for both climate and pigs.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled “vegan bacon” and was then disappointed that it didn’t contain meat. It’s not like manufacturers try to deceive people. The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it’s usually even sold from a different shelf.I don’t understand why you seem to be so angry about it. I won’t buy “real” bacon because it’s terrible for both climate and pigs.
I am not that sure that from a climate point of view, my steak that come from the farm down the road (who was raised in the grass the other side of the road) is worse than the avocado coming from Florida.
If you go to the industrial production, in the end there are no difference in the outcome, only in the way you arrive there.
Nobody is mislabeling food. Vegan bacon is the perfect term for a vegan bacon substitute and nobody ever bought something labeled “vegan bacon” and was then disappointed that it didn’t contain meat. It’s not like manufacturers try to deceive people.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
The stuff is clearly labeled as vegan and it’s usually even sold from a different shelf.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
I’m just going to drop this here.
Transportation is such a small factor in food production is pretty much negligible. Meat always loses vs plants regarding climate impact.
Fine, but because we cannot agree to call things with its proper name ?
Yes, that’s all I’m saying. Bacon is Bacon, vegan bacon is vegan bacon.
True, so I suppose that I can come up with some kind of “beyond cabbage” made from animal products and call it cabbage, right ? After all people just need to do is read the label…
If your meat cabbage abomination is labeled correctly and not sold in the vegetable section of the supermarket, sure, go for it. I doubt it would be a successful product, but go for it.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don’t care which animal parts you buy as long as “meat” or “steak” is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Mentioned in another thread. I buy meat cuts the same way I buy a head of broccoli, pass by the aisle look at it and grab it. And so does the fucking majority of population that are busy and would like to continue to do so and not need to read the fine printing
I can identify a beef steak from pork, lamb, chicken and horse by the look of the meat and by the cut. I do so routinely and so do everyone that shops for meat.
The same way I can tell a head of broccoli from say cauliflower.
A meat replacement beef stake looks exactly like a beef steak. If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
Now, I’ve already covered this in other comments so if you are about to say this is my fucking problem and that I should learn to read. No, this is every customer’s problem. People are busy, elderly people might not bring their glasses to the supermarket and more in general the EU is on the side of the customer so no, company that sell something should label it clearly particularly if it could be deceiving.
If you are about to give me the poor meat eaters, treated unwell consider that vegetarians and vegans have more to lose. What if the tables turn and dodgy vendors are allowed to label their product vegan friendly even tho6they might not be.
If it also says steak on the packaging people can just grab it and go. Definition of mislabelling.
I have never seen just [Steak] on any package. You have proven that you know words by writingen them. I reckon you can read them too.
Would it be fine for you to start selling dog steak just labeld as steak? They take great care and pride to label it correctly https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/ They make sure you know what you get because it is a premium product. If you just buy storebrand animal meat and don’t care about who it was I can’t help you.
Do you buy [generic animal steak] or do you buy cattle, bison, buffalo, camel, goat, horse, kangaroo, sheep, ostrich, pigs, turkey, or deer steak?
In Italy (and as far as I remember even in France) they are divided into different aisles, so in a certain aisle you will find only meat from a certain animal.
People sometimes act like that the description of steak or milk (cow, human, goat, cat) is unambiguous. I have never seen plant based food which does not declare it like [plant based steak]
It is not the point, I also never see a plant based food not declared, but I think it is right to not be able to call “milk” what you get from a almond.
I am all in for clear description of food and a big label if it contains animal suffering and the destruction of the eco system or if it is plant based. If you don’t care which animal parts you buy as long as “meat” or “steak” is any death animal I think you are in the minority.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
Or maybe we just think that words has a meaning.
I guess you have a strong opinion on calling a bond between two man or two woman marriage?
Not particularly. For what I think is the marriage is, I simply don’t care and, oddly enough, the law about the civil marriage cite the words “husband” and “wife” only once, the other times it use the word “consorts” that here is neutral, and in the context it simply mean “both of you”. So even the law seem to don’t care (mostly) about the sex of the people getting married.
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim “but the bible …” “It is between a man a women and nothing else” “next you want to marriage you dog”, right? There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
So it was always the way that same sex marriage was accepted and nobody had to fight against people who claim “but the bible …” “It is between a man a women and nothing else” “next you want to marriage you dog”, right?
That’s not what I said. I just stated what I think and what the law say in Italy. I am not responsible for what other people think.
There where never people who fought to change the system because the system and the laws have always been perfect?
If we are talking about the marriage, I can agree with you, in fact in Italy we have other forms of unions (which don’t make any difference between the sexes) to substitute the marriage which for the State are like a marriage. Note that even if conceptually they are the same thing, we call with different names exactly because in Italy the marriage is way too often identified with the religious one, which for the law is void (ie if you are only married relligiously, which means the 3 law article I cited are not read, then for the State you are not married). We have not tried to change the meaning of a specific word.
I love meat and think that this rule is stupid. The metaphors are used to describe what taste and texture you might expect from a product, which makes sense especially for people who just switched and want to emulate the taste pallet they are used to.
Except that France regulates their food industry very strictly and rightly so. What you think it’s a metaphor, it’s actually a word with a specific meaning.
Try to emulate Champagne and sell it as a Champagne in europe, and then try to convince the judge that you just intended that as a metaphore and wanted to emulate the taste pallet.
Champagne is a funny example because colloquially people will often use that term to describe any sparkling wine. And as said before - I disagree that this specific regulation is very useful to anyone, except maybe producers. Most people understand what coconut milk is.
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne COLLOQUIALLY with your mates and miss the point that this whole thread is about food being sold to customers and actually labelled wrong, something that is taken pretty seriously in the EU, and rightly so.
Want to continue talking about champagne in your after work plans with Debbie from the second floor? Be out guest but you can’t sell something that is not champagne as such.
And BTW this is a good thing for all of us consumers of the union. Particularly vegans and vegetarians, the main target audience of these replacement products. You wouldn’t want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
The only funny thing is that you call shitty wine champagne
You seem to be a calm and reasonable person.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak. For customer it’s rather clear that it’s vegan and he also gets a general idea of taste and texture that the producer was at least going for. So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak?
You wouldn’t want their products accidentally mislabelled and chicken eggs or animal meat ending in products labelled as vegan?
If you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don’t see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
Maybe instead of screaming you could actually try to explain what is a problem of labeling a vegan product as vegan steak
Confusing and misrepresenting. Steak is meat.
For customer it’s rather clear that it’s vegan Except that in some cases it’s not.
So what exact problem does arrive from having a vegan steak? Again confusing and misrepresenting for customers. The reason why France legislated about this BTW, let’s not pretend it’s hard to grasp
if you planing on producing meat that tastes like banana, I don’t see any problem to lable it as meat banana.
No I am talking about a processed vegan food that is called ‘vegan something’ but that it turns out, has chicken eggs and maybe even meat in the list of ingredients. Just because someone might argue around the meaning of ‘vegan’ the way we are doing for steak, and legislation in some countriesight not protect the meaning of vegan in food names.
Just to be very clear. Nothing against vegans or vegan food. I am for clarity when it comes to customers, particularly in the food industry.
The politicians are trying to take away our steak!!1!
