• givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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    22 days ago

    Heaven forbid we try running charismatic candidates like Obama and Bill…

    Like, it’s insane to me that everyone seems to be aware of what wins elections, but the people running the Dem party just keep insisting we need to shut up and vote for someone very few people actually want.

    Like, we can’t do this without the voters, they’re the irreplaceable part.

    We can get different people to run the party, or just coalesce around another.

    • Clent@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      Democrats need to fall in love. Republicans just need to fall in line.

      It’s like you read the meme and went yep, totally their fault. I’m ok with my life gets shittier until I fall in love with a politician. It’s not my fault. I am owed this.

      Is there a term for the political version of an incel?

    • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      Like. lets talk about what happened.

      it’s reasonable to claim that Gore actually won in 2000. There were sixty one thousand votes that had not been machine-counted because of rampant, clearly partisan, bullshit reasons (among them “hanging chad”,). the Florida Supreme Court ordered a manual count of those ballots with SCOTUS, lead by Scalia, decided to stay because the recount would give Bush a veneer of “illegitimacy”. (gee. wonder why, ya fucking partisan hack.) To be perfectly clear, Gore lost Florida (and the electoral college) by 570 votes. The decision in Bush V. Gore to stay the manual recount basically handed Bush the win. (and, I might add, cast doubt on the legitimacy of bush’s win. it was handed by a court that had no business ordering that stay. But did anyway, because they’re partisan hacks. I’m not angry, honest.)

      Kerry flip-flopped more than a fish out of water, making it hard for independents and centrists to know what his positions actually were. 2 years prior to the election he was, for example, staunchly against gay marriage (and lets be honest, the US was very hostile to gay marriage then. There’s been a massive sea change in that, but it hadn’t happened yet.), but in 2004 signed a letter urging Massachusetts to not outlaw gay marriage. Further, he had the personality of a cold fish. and his running mate was an empty suit with nothing to back it up- who couldn’t even deliver his home State of North Carolina… In short, you had a couple warm bodies running. At the time, Bush was still riding high off 9/11 and the Iraq war and americans were still angry at that; the war wasn’t unpopular yet. Katrina hadn’t happened yet, and Bush was still reasonably popular. So, of fucking course Kerry lost.

      Hillary. Where do we begin? her emails? lets start there.

      Sure, “HeR EmAiLs” and “LoCk HeR uP” is an idiotic rallying cry of MAGA morons everywhere. But, even so, she conducted official Sec of State business on a personal email routinely. It’s such a great rallying cry because it actually has some teeth. it should be scandalous. Even if she was perfectly not-at-all-corrupt, it looks that way. I- and most everyone else- would be legitimately fired for conducting that level of business off a personal email. it should be 100% unacceptable. Not saying she should have been locked up or grilled the way she was. But seriously. It looked bad. and it played in the news.

      Then we got Benghazi. an American ambassador died in a terrorist attack. There’s some things that hindsight says they could have done differently. Republicans latched onto it for political theater, with 10 different investigations and multiple sessions of grilling Clinton, who even then was the presumptive nominee to replace Obama. there was some funding that her office denied, she might not even have been aware that “she” denied it. Hindsight’s a bitch. Anyhow… the republican shenanigans played well in the media.

      Oh. “Super Criminals”. Hillary was very unpopular with minority voters- particularly Black and Latinos. sound clips calling for law-and-order tough-on-crime calling black people “super criminals” didn’t help. there was a lot there, especially with her attitude, but in the end they simply didn’t show up for her. Even if you look at women voters, she under-performed compared to Obamma. (i mean, he looks mighty fine in a tan suit… sorry, sorry. couldn’t resist.) Like, how unpopular do you have to be as a woman, to lose women voters from Obama’s election, when you’re running against Donald- “grab them by the pussy”, “When you’re that rich they let you do it”, “Octopus-Arms” -Trump.

      Lets also talk about how she boosted trump specifically because he was “a clown” or whatever. She gave us trump and then proceededly arrogantly not campaign in key states.

      oh, and there’s more that I just don’t have time to get into… but we got Whitewater, Travelgate, filegate; and shit rolls down hill so lets toss in Paula Jones and Monika Lewinsky scandals. Like there’s a lot of smoke there, and there might be a couple fires, or maybe they’re just really not that corrupt as people and it’s all a big missunderstanding. but again, that plays in the media, and it looks bad. Hilary was the definition of The Establishment™️ running against an anti-establismhent candidate. Of fucking course she’s gonna lose, and she really didn’t help matters by fucking around with not campaigning in key swing states because, “naw, it’s fucking trump”.

      Yup. so aside from Gore, there’s really rather good reasons to have not liked them, and the DNC idiots thought they new better and ran them anyhow… and we got fucked because of it. blaming voters for your own stupid blunders seems to be a DNC favorite. And they’re doing it again.

  • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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    22 days ago

    What the fuck is this shit? Motherfucker, I lived through these elections, and this is some boomer revisionist bull shit.

    Al Gore lost because he couldn’t differentiate himself from god-damned George W Bush. He was too centrist to encourage the left base to show up for him.

    Kerry lost because he couldn’t articulate his better vision for America, and was too centrist to encourage the left base to show up for him.

    Hillary lost because she didn’t even try to reach out to the left base. She was too centrist to beat Donald Fucking Trump.

    Three ostensibly intelligent leaders who lost their elections to fucking morons because they thought that they didn’t need to try very hard to reach out to progressive voters.

    Any one of them would have been a better President than what we got, but the fact that they all lost means they did something wrong. It isn’t the fault of the voters demanding better, it’s the fault of the party failing to meet the demand.

    • John Richard@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      AOC for President with Biden as VP. It would destroy the Republicans… they’d have strokes within a few days. With Biden as VP all the boomers that actually like Biden will be onboard.

  • Colonel Panic@lemm.ee
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    22 days ago

    I just want to join in to remind everyone that multiple things can be true at the same time.

    • The DNC/Biden can and should be doing better.

    • We only have 2 options for president. It will be one of the two main candidates because that is how the system works. Don’t pretend it doesn’t. You either vote for one of those two or you are ok with either.

    • We should be pressuring Biden to do more about both Ukraine and Gaza. Ending both conflicts and getting aid to people.

    • Choosing to vote for a 3rd party to protest Biden’s response to Gaza/Israel is only going to help Trump in the short term. Yes, long term Biden and DNC may notice their total votes going down, but in the short term it will put Trump in the Whitehouse and now what? What did you accomplish if the DNC realizes they fucked up, but can’t do anything about it because Trump is now a dictator?

    • Politics is a slow moving thing. Too many people expect some perfect ideal candidate or policy and won’t compromise on anything. That isn’t how it works, you have to compromise and slowly pull things the way you want. It doesn’t happen in one election cycle.

    • We should have been and should be campaigning and pushing for changes to our system so that we can have better options in the future. We need to push for Ranked Choice Voting (or anything better than FPTP). And voting in local level elections to make small changes across the country. Term limits. Campaign finance reforms. Etc etc. because until we get a new system we effectively can’t just vote for who we want or it doesn’t do anything more than a fart in a hurricane.

    I see a lot of people who are saying they will not vote for Biden because the Gaza/Israel issue. Which I completely understand. But the two truths you have to accept in doing so is that you will not be complicit in the genocide. But you will be complicit if Trump wins. Both can be true. You decide which one you would rather see. If you don’t want Trump then the only option is a vote for Biden. And until we reform our voting system we don’t have viable 3rd parties and pretending we do is just delusional. Look at every election for the last hundred years and you will see enough proof. It’s not ideal, but it is reality. **Accept it **so we can change it together.

    • HomerianSymphony@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      We only have 2 options for president.

      This kind of thinking is how you end up with only two options.

      A third option emerges when enough people say “I am not voting for either of those two”.

      You either vote for one of those two or you are ok with either.

      Or, it means you’re not okay with either.

      We need to push for Ranked Choice Voting (or anything better than FPTP).

      Canada has FPTP voting and still manages to have four federal political parties.

      Australia has ranked ballots and effectively has a two-party system that hasn’t changed in 80 years (though they do sometimes manage to get some independents elected to parliament)*.

      I’m not saying the voting system is irrelevant. But the true obstacle to multi-party democracy is the fact that voters think in a polarized two-party way (that you are currently reinforcing).

      * This is a description of Australia’s House of Representives. Their Senate uses proportional representation, and does have more than two parties. And technically Australia has three political parties in the House of Representives, but two of them have been in a permanent coalition since 1946 and are often treated as a single entity, with the result that Australians consider themselves to have a two-party system.

  • RatzChatsubo@lemm.ee
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    21 days ago

    I miss when Lemmy was a socialist platform. It’s full of “vote blue no matter who” people now

    • abbotsbury@lemmy.world
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      21 days ago

      I mean, voting blue no matter who is still in my best interest.

      I hate it and it sucks, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        21 days ago

        This enables Democrats to do anything they want, like genocide.

        We can’t force Biden to stop because he believes you will vote blue no matter who.

        It is 100% your fault that the protests and uncommitted vote have limited to no effect.

        • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
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          21 days ago

          In a two party first past the post system, not voting (or throwing away your vote on a candidate who will not win) benefits the candidate you least want because it effectively gives half your vote to each side

          In the general elections, voting blue no matter who is harm reduction, the time for activism was back in the primaries

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            21 days ago

            Okay? The point I’m making, which you have totally ignored, is that votes are the only leverage that we have. By throwing my vote away the Democrats can’t have it, and if enough people do that they lose. Supposedly they want to win, so they need to convince me to note vote for Aaron Bushnell this November. By deciding to enslave yourself to the Democrats and slavishly give them your support no matter what they have no reason to not get even worse. By next year they’ll have moved even farther to the right and it will be your fault because you refused to use the only leverage you have to move them to the left.

            Every election cycle the Democrats just become the Republicans from the last election cycle. Biden is doing genocide, violating international law by limiting asylum seekers, and marching us towards WW3. How much worse will they get if they aren’t stopped?

                • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
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                  21 days ago

                  There’s primaries for federal elections every 2 years in the US, if you want to change the makeup of the party, vote for different candidates in them

            • Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml
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              21 days ago

              Don’t forget that he’s also made more progress on building the southern border wall and killing the asylum process than trump did in his 4 years. But he wears a blue tie (Good Guys) and that’s all that really matters.

            • abbotsbury@lemmy.world
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              21 days ago

              and if enough people do that they lose

              and then things get even worse for everyone, including Palestinians

                • abbotsbury@lemmy.world
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                  21 days ago

                  And not voting for a major party will fix that how?

                  Even if a significant portion of the population goes third party (and assuming they all agree on the same party), splitting the vote has only ever helped the opposition.

                  And if Democrats are just Republicans from the last election cycle, which is an absolutely unhinged notion but I’ll humor you anyway, voting for Democrats is still in my best interest since Republicans are even further right

                  You’ve legitimately lost your mind in a purity test if you can’t see that.

        • Optional@lemmy.worldOP
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          21 days ago

          Hey russian troll monkeys, get your heads out of your asses for four months!! That’s it!! Then you can jam ‘em right back up there. Promise.

          Fucking sick of you GeNoSiDe JoE bullshit fuckheads. God fucking dammit you want trump so goddamned bad. Idiots! And claiming to be left! The stupidest possible take is the one you won’t shut up about. Almost like . . like you know it’s only going to divide people and suppress turnout. Fuck you.

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            20 days ago

            I want the genocide to end and the only way for Biden to win is if he stops doing genocide.

            Why doesn’t Biden want to win?

  • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
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    22 days ago

    Or, maybe, nobody wants to vote for Lo Fat, Tropical Blast, Pride Month GOP when original flavor is still available at stores

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      22 days ago

      Hilary lost to Obama in 2008 because she would not shut up about how Aktuly Very Correct she was in her endorsement of the invasion of Iraq. She would not shut up about how international trade deals are cool and deindustrialization of the Midwest was an improvement. She kept getting caught in very stupid conferences with two dozen billionaires saying how we’re going to fuck the middle class raw.

      And eight years later she decided to run the exact same campaign while secretly funneling money to Trump as a straw candidate she could easily beat in the general.

      And then what happened?

      • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
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        22 days ago

        Remember the PUMA (Party Unity My Ass) Hillary thing in 2008 after she lost the primary and was like “Actually John McCain is an honorable man and I’m glad I ran a SUPER racist campaign?” They and Liz Cheney are just the whole party now. I guess we’ll see how “aggrieved woman, angry at you for voting wrong,” does in November as a party platform. I’m optimistic!

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          22 days ago

          Also worth noting that the majority of white women voted for Donald Trump in 2016.

          Even Hilary’s Girlboss base couldn’t say no to another round of GOP tax cuts

          • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
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            22 days ago

            Well we all know that’s just because their minds were poisoned by having a primary. Thankfully the party has moved beyond that and now just ordains who we will vote for at the party level.

            • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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              22 days ago

              I agree the DNC primary is bullshit, but if you’re bitching about this year, then shut the fuck up. Nobody is going to win a primary against an incumbent President. There aren’t any Democrats who could beat Biden heads up, much less Trump.

              If you want to talk about the primaries in 2020 and 2016, then yes I agree.

              • bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net
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                22 days ago

                A primary hones a candidate and a party’s messaging. The idea that it weakens you is perpetuated by the PR execs who run the DNC, because they don’t want to need to deal with internal discontent about them being shit at running a political party. How much free earned media did Trump get, looking like a winner, defeating his opponents? You can’t buy that kind of media. But the DNC prefers media cycles of “Man accused of rigging last election won’t even allow a primary vote in 5+ states.” It’s just bad optics, pure and simple, and is part of why Biden’s approval is in the 30’s. America has never seen him run a non-basement campaign, where he actually tries to earn their votes, since he was calling voters “fats” and challenging them to fist fights in January of 2020.

                • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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                  21 days ago

                  I don’t think a primary would have weakened Biden, but I also don’t think a viable candidate could have challenged Biden. Sitting presidents don’t face legitimate primary challengers.

                  The New Hampshire thing is a stupid DNC machination. They don’t want New Hampshire to be first anymore, and New Hampshire still wants to be first. That’s not Biden rigging the election, that’s just oligarchs playing chicken with human rights.

                  I’d love to see a barnstorming Biden go fifty states with a message of hope and progress. Biden ain’t that guy, and he wasn’t that guy when he was 20.years younger, he either. But he is the incumbent, and no serious Democrat is going to risk the ire of the party by challenging the person who is ostensibly the party leader. They won’t raise money, they won’t have volunteers, and they won’t get any pork or committee assignments. It’s just bad politics.

                  I agree with you, I think an actual primary would be good. But I’m no longer naive enough to think it might happen.