This is the link I was talking about. I probably should have been clearer. But this isn’t just the plaintiff’s opinion, it’s a clear statement by the HHS secretary.
Unfortunately the HHS Secretary isn’t empowered to create law, nor are they empowered to interpret law. They can only share opinions, provide guidance, create policy, etc. So no, in this case, you are not quite right.
Further, as the other user pointed out: the hospital would rather be sued by the individual for violating their rights than by the state for violating the law. Regardless of potential precedent or final outcome, one is far, FAR more costly than the other.
As they say, when the punishment is less than the profit, it’s not a punishment, it’s a business expense
Ultimately, laws can only be judged on their ability to create outcomes. This one has failed miserably
My point is that this isn’t some random person stating as much. It’s an actual finding by the federal government, and adding to that the lawsuit makes it crystal clear the hospital is in the wrong.
If I tell my doctor friend Bob not to call 911 unless there’s an emergency, my other friend Tom has a seizure that Bob believes may kill him, and Bob doesn’t call 911, is that my fault or Bob’s?
The fact that numerous abortions have happened in ban states and nobody has been charged so far is evidence that emergency allowances aren’t some draconian measure.
And you don’t seem to be listening to people who are telling you that the law doesn’t have to be draconian to cost people their lives.
If some number of hospitals conclude that the cost of letting people die and settling wrongful death cases is lower than the cost of defending patients’ rights to an abortion under their specific circumstances, then those hospitals will set policy that prohibits providing those abortions. Because they are profit-driven, not charities (a separate but related problem)
I will say it again: if the cost is less than the profit, it’s not a punishment, it’s a business expense. Put another way, if actually breaking law A costs less than defending accusations of breaking law B, they will break law A every time.
I’m really tired of trying to explain to people that laws and politics do not exist in a bubble.
That calculation can change at any time. Since every state with an abortion ban allows for emergency abortions, federal law requires that they be available, and no doctors have been prosecuted for performing an emergency abortion, there is no logical reason to believe this will happen. However, there is now a significant risk of someone suing the hospital if a woman becomes injured or dies. When they realize they can make more money by following the law, this problem will go away.
A) You hope it will. In the meantime, we continue to see cases of people being in danger or even dying.
B) Good for you that you can hand-wave away other people’s lives and safety as just a temporary bump in the road.
Your callousness is disconcerting, to say the least, and I’m done with this conversation now because I can’t teach you to stop looking at people as statistics.
A) These kinds of calculations change all the time. That’s why we have other companies that hire and fire people constantly or make other seemingly absurd decisions - the cost and benefit calculations change. There’s more money to be made in providing early deliveries, like one doctor said they would, than there is in sending patients (customers) on their way with no treatment and getting sued for it. Based on the hundreds of abortions that have happened in Missouri since the ban clearly other doctors think this is true.
B) Allowing abortion in all cases would be a fallacious and nightmarish way to handwave human life as expendable in the name of bodily autonomy.
You don’t want to kill people unnecessarily, do you? That would make you so callous as to be inhumane.
I’ll come back for one last comment to make this clear:
It is never, EVER acceptable to force someone to use their body to save the life of another. Ever. CORPSES have more rights than that (you have to volunteer to be a donor before death).
You want women to have fewer rights than corpses?
And that’s without even arguing whether a clump of cells that can’t survive on its own is even considered a life.
You can think someone sucks for having an abortion, and we can discuss what happens when a fetus could possible be viable on its own. But bodily autonomy is non-negotiable. If someone says “disconnect me from the thing attached to my body” you fucking do it. End of story. Call them horrible, callous, a sinner, whatever you want. But you do not force people to use their body as an incubator against their will.
Your claim is wrong. Parents and guardians are forced to use their bodies to provide for children after they’re born. They may not be inside the mother any longer, but if the child is harmed or killed, they’re liable for child abuse, manslaughter, murder, etc.
The fetus has bodily autonomy as well. The woman’s body is made to accommodate the fetus, while no human being is made to accommodate organ harvesting. It is, by definition, a human organism, and thus a human being. A fetus is not a “thing.”
“At the time of the discussion, Farmer was medically stable, with some vaginal bleeding that was not heavy.
“Therefore contrary to the most appropriate management based (sic) my medical opinion, due to the legal language of MO law, we are unable to offer induction of labor at this time,” the report quotes the specialist as saying.”
Again, she was stable at the time. The law required that they not perform an abortion.
A political official saying something is not the law. Filling a lawsuit is not the law.
And you apparently didn’t read the rest of the article which states in no uncertain terms the hospital was wrong, nor do you know the statements of her lawsuit: she was refused even routine care for her miscarriage even though she was told several times she was in danger.
You presented it as a law being broken. The only law broken would have been if doctors performed the abortion early because she voted to make it illegal.
“At risk” isn’t an immediate threat. Having high blood pressure makes you, “at risk.” That’s not the same as having a heart attack which is an immediate threat to your life.
The law only allows abortion under immediate threat.
She wanted an early abortion because it was the safe option. But the law precludes proactive healthcare.
By the time Ms. Farmer arrived at TUKH, she had been evaluated and it was clear that she had lost all her amniotic fluid, and her pregnancy—which she had dreamed of and longed for—was no longer viable. And unless she received immediate medical intervention to end the pregnancy in a medical setting, she was at risk of severe blood loss, sepsis, loss of fertility, and death.
It could not be a more obvious example of a medical error. When the law says this is allowed, the law is not at fault.
Not sure why you replied with the same remark to two different comments, but whatever.
This is the link I was talking about. I probably should have been clearer. But this isn’t just the plaintiff’s opinion, it’s a clear statement by the HHS secretary.
Unfortunately the HHS Secretary isn’t empowered to create law, nor are they empowered to interpret law. They can only share opinions, provide guidance, create policy, etc. So no, in this case, you are not quite right.
Further, as the other user pointed out: the hospital would rather be sued by the individual for violating their rights than by the state for violating the law. Regardless of potential precedent or final outcome, one is far, FAR more costly than the other.
As they say, when the punishment is less than the profit, it’s not a punishment, it’s a business expense
Ultimately, laws can only be judged on their ability to create outcomes. This one has failed miserably
My point is that this isn’t some random person stating as much. It’s an actual finding by the federal government, and adding to that the lawsuit makes it crystal clear the hospital is in the wrong.
If I tell my doctor friend Bob not to call 911 unless there’s an emergency, my other friend Tom has a seizure that Bob believes may kill him, and Bob doesn’t call 911, is that my fault or Bob’s?
The fact that numerous abortions have happened in ban states and nobody has been charged so far is evidence that emergency allowances aren’t some draconian measure.
And you don’t seem to be listening to people who are telling you that the law doesn’t have to be draconian to cost people their lives.
If some number of hospitals conclude that the cost of letting people die and settling wrongful death cases is lower than the cost of defending patients’ rights to an abortion under their specific circumstances, then those hospitals will set policy that prohibits providing those abortions. Because they are profit-driven, not charities (a separate but related problem)
I will say it again: if the cost is less than the profit, it’s not a punishment, it’s a business expense. Put another way, if actually breaking law A costs less than defending accusations of breaking law B, they will break law A every time.
I’m really tired of trying to explain to people that laws and politics do not exist in a bubble.
That calculation can change at any time. Since every state with an abortion ban allows for emergency abortions, federal law requires that they be available, and no doctors have been prosecuted for performing an emergency abortion, there is no logical reason to believe this will happen. However, there is now a significant risk of someone suing the hospital if a woman becomes injured or dies. When they realize they can make more money by following the law, this problem will go away.
A) You hope it will. In the meantime, we continue to see cases of people being in danger or even dying.
B) Good for you that you can hand-wave away other people’s lives and safety as just a temporary bump in the road.
Your callousness is disconcerting, to say the least, and I’m done with this conversation now because I can’t teach you to stop looking at people as statistics.
A) These kinds of calculations change all the time. That’s why we have other companies that hire and fire people constantly or make other seemingly absurd decisions - the cost and benefit calculations change. There’s more money to be made in providing early deliveries, like one doctor said they would, than there is in sending patients (customers) on their way with no treatment and getting sued for it. Based on the hundreds of abortions that have happened in Missouri since the ban clearly other doctors think this is true.
B) Allowing abortion in all cases would be a fallacious and nightmarish way to handwave human life as expendable in the name of bodily autonomy.
You don’t want to kill people unnecessarily, do you? That would make you so callous as to be inhumane.
I’ll come back for one last comment to make this clear:
It is never, EVER acceptable to force someone to use their body to save the life of another. Ever. CORPSES have more rights than that (you have to volunteer to be a donor before death).
You want women to have fewer rights than corpses?
And that’s without even arguing whether a clump of cells that can’t survive on its own is even considered a life.
You can think someone sucks for having an abortion, and we can discuss what happens when a fetus could possible be viable on its own. But bodily autonomy is non-negotiable. If someone says “disconnect me from the thing attached to my body” you fucking do it. End of story. Call them horrible, callous, a sinner, whatever you want. But you do not force people to use their body as an incubator against their will.
Your claim is wrong. Parents and guardians are forced to use their bodies to provide for children after they’re born. They may not be inside the mother any longer, but if the child is harmed or killed, they’re liable for child abuse, manslaughter, murder, etc.
The fetus has bodily autonomy as well. The woman’s body is made to accommodate the fetus, while no human being is made to accommodate organ harvesting. It is, by definition, a human organism, and thus a human being. A fetus is not a “thing.”
I’ve already quoted from that exact link.
From link you were talking about:
“At the time of the discussion, Farmer was medically stable, with some vaginal bleeding that was not heavy. “Therefore contrary to the most appropriate management based (sic) my medical opinion, due to the legal language of MO law, we are unable to offer induction of labor at this time,” the report quotes the specialist as saying.”
Again, she was stable at the time. The law required that they not perform an abortion.
A political official saying something is not the law. Filling a lawsuit is not the law.
And you apparently didn’t read the rest of the article which states in no uncertain terms the hospital was wrong, nor do you know the statements of her lawsuit: she was refused even routine care for her miscarriage even though she was told several times she was in danger.
The doctors said she wasn’t in immediate danger.
You presented it as a law being broken. The only law broken would have been if doctors performed the abortion early because she voted to make it illegal.
From her lawsuit:
This is immediate danger. The law would not have been broken had the procedure been performed…
“At risk” isn’t an immediate threat. Having high blood pressure makes you, “at risk.” That’s not the same as having a heart attack which is an immediate threat to your life.
The law only allows abortion under immediate threat.
She wanted an early abortion because it was the safe option. But the law precludes proactive healthcare.
If your water breaks at 16 weeks, that is an emergency. According to the lawsuit, they knew this quite well:
It could not be a more obvious example of a medical error. When the law says this is allowed, the law is not at fault.
Not sure why you replied with the same remark to two different comments, but whatever.