And frankly, even if you’re literally portioning rations for the revolution you plan to start tomorrow, the idea of not taking the absolutely minute amount of time, in the grand scheme of things, that it takes to potentially positively affect change is still absurd. If this really was the revolution, then the people’s army couldn’t afford to leave strategic advantages like that on the table.
Somebody said something to this effect once: Voting isn’t about picking which hero is going to save us; it’s about picking the kind of villain we have to fight against.
I just don’t even understand how this is still a conversation. It’s literally not an either/or dichotomy here. All of those things you want to do to prepare for the revolution or whatever? You can still do all of them and vote. You lose absolutely nothing by voting. Zero. It’s just such a batshit mentality from the very onset.
After really trying to engage sincerely with a couple of these folks online the only conclusion I can reach is that they are trying to suppress the vote under the guise of being extremist left. Like you say, there’s zero rational strategy to not using or tanking your vote, and only can be defended if you claim both candidates are the same. They persist in saying that, with trash like “Revolution is necessary, electoralism cannot work.” to rationalize not voting toward the lesser of two evils.
“Anarchists against electoralism” is a tiny number of people the Dems like to scapegoat. The vast majority of voters don’t even know Anarchists exist.
Unfortunately, most people are checked out of “politics”. I wish Democrats were more focused on reaching out and getting people excited to vote, rather than the constant complaints about people to the left of you.
Exactly this. I think there are only two people you hear saying this: the overtly bad actors trying to suppress votes or the few extremely gullible idiots who stupidly get wrapped up in the lies of former. Thankfully I think it’s usually clear before long which of the two you’re talking to and only one of them is worth your time, and they’re the rarer of them.
All of those things you want to do to prepare for the revolution or whatever? You can still do all of them and vote.
I mean, a few of the things I want to do to prepare for a revolution are explicitly illegal, and I don’t have enough commas in my bank account to get away with treason.
And this has any relevancy on voting… How? Either you’re going to the do the illegal things, which can be done on any day other than Nov 5 or you aren’t going to the do the illegal things and you can still vote on Nov 5.
I don’t give a shit about your personal revolutionary savior cosplaying fantasy; it is entirely non-sequitur to the topic of how voting is still the reasonable choice even for the revolutionarily-motivated.
I’m not going to vote on November 5th.
Because I mailed my ballot on October 23rd.
Your masturbatory revolutionary cosplay fantasies are still non-sequitur nonetheless.
Yes, it was an attempt at a joke. Hence me saying I don’t have enough commas
Guess today’s not the day for jokes.
Today is the day we need jokes the most.
I know a guy who was working for the Fire Department in New York on 9/11/2001.
He told me that when he brought a newspaper on 9/12 he was disappointed that they’d cut the comics page.
He said it was a day he really needed to see Charlie Brown and Lucy.
Guess I need better jokes then
Canonical Strawman Leftist™ describing their utopia: “Everyone votes on everything, and we engage in thoughtful discussion to persuade our neighbors to make good choices with their votes.”
Same leftist describing today: “Voting is pointless, and it’s impossible to change anyone’s mind.”
It’s nice of you to admit you’re arguing against a straw man.
Do you know how much fuckin time that would take? I’m glad we hire people to do these things. I just wish they were better at them.
I dislike leftist Seinfeld, even if he’d hate it.
Yeah, punch left some more. Seems to work really well for you guys.
LMFAO OP just tearing through the haters in the comments
The burden of proof is on revolutionaries. Always!
You not only need to show that your radically new society is a genuine improvement (and won’t collapse into a brutal dictatorship) but also that it’s enough of an improvement to be worth the millions of lives that would be lost during the revolution! Furthermore, you need to show that the new society you propose can accommodate people whose ideology is different from your own.
Assuming that humans will all think and behave the same way has never worked throughout human history. Liberal democracy (and to a lesser extent enlightened monarchy) has been the only time period to accommodate diverse opinions, scientific and economic flourishing, and strong protections for individual liberty (and sexuality) simultaneously with a large population. All of the other systems were either very small (and so relied on the close bonds of kinship and inter-familial relationships) or dominated by brutal despots.
Thus, as much as we hate our current system for its many flaws, it’s so much better than everything that has gone before that the bar has been set very high.
In other words.
You can stuff their heads with memes and talking-points all day, get them shouting the party slogans in chorus.
But you can’t give them the initiative to actually do something.
(Or to think for themselves for that matter. It rather contradicts the whole stuffed-head thing)
Yeah lets blame the voters, not the candidates for not exciting the voter base with actual solutions for issues
If the threat of your neighbors, everyone in Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon and in Taiwan and Ukraine being killed while worsening the climate crisis and plunging over 300 million into fascism isn’t “exciting” to voters, then those voters are sociopaths.
Most Americans are extraordinarily ignorant of anything outside of america. Shit a lot of people dont even know the war in Ukraine is still raging. The only thing they can really see is the cost of living, and we suffered terribly under biden.
Theres a video by britmonkey explaining how Americans became so ignorant
Can’t wait for Trump to make that worse.
I’d have taken “not making abortion illegal nation wide” but I guess even that was too little for many.
I honestly think people just don’t realize how much worse it can get. We all get to see together now.
not making abortion illegal nation wide
Didn’t we just have a four year democratic regime? What happened? Did they just forget? On Jan 6th, will Biden go “oh shoot! We were supposed to do something about abortion rights! Ah well, next presidency.”
How is US law made?
The same way regardless of whether the democrats or the republicans are in power.
Ok, are you under the impression Dems would get help passing this abortion protection bill from Republicans?
You must realize that you have kind of an inconsistent view of the efficacy of the oval office. When the republicans are in power, or are about to be, this is something to be feared, and they’ll turn the country into a banana republic, and they’ll curtail all civil rights. But when a democratic is in power, the presidency becomes this meaningless ceremonial role that can’t really do anything because of those darned republicans, and so you can’t really blame them for not making any meaningful change. This is clearly internally inconsistent. One of these two opinions is false. Either the presidency can be used to effect meaningful change, or it cannot. You can’t believe both.
I think the republicans show that the former is true. Whether you like it or not (I certainly don’t), whenever the republicans are in power they’re able to enact massive impactful changes (the changes which eventually led to the overturning of Roe v Wade are a good example). The reasons as to why the democrats do not enact such changes is up for debate, but the idea that they don’t because they can’t is demonstrably false.
This is a long-winded non answer.
How do Dems pass abortion protection laws without overwhelming control of the House, Senate, and Presidency?
It’s not inconsistent. We see it habitually. Republican power is oversized in the Senate, House, and arguably the Executive due to structural issues caused by our bicameral system and the cap on representatives. This results in the GOP having a much stronger majority control over all three branches - added also that Republican politicians toe the line more frequently for the radical things they want to push.
It isn’t an objective matter of how powerful or effective the Executive branch is, but also the power structures in the party in control. It is not a false dichotomy to think that Democrats struggle to pass impactful changes while on power, but the Republicans are able to do that more effectively while in power.
How do you think laws are made? There were bills and they got filibustered. Blame Joe Manchin for keeping the filibuster and blocking his entire party from passing it.
Unironically this.
Well this didn’t age well.
Hopefully we will learn to not blame people for their choice but just try to offer them something better.
Wow I literally just watched this episode
There “anti-electoralist leftists” are nearly undisguisable from those nihilistic radical centrists, except one likes to LARP as the Stalinist secret police.
Keep punching left I’m sure you’ll win over those moderate Republicans any day now /s
Genuinely laughing at how you construct a false premise and then continue building a mountain of straw men on top of it.
I guess that’s what happens when liberals abandon reality. Better luck constructing a coherent thought next time!
Genuinely laughing at how you construct a false premise and then continue building a mountain of straw men on top of it.
I guess that’s what happens when liberals abandon reality. Better luck constructing a coherent thought next time!
>You’re absolutely right. Most of these self-proclaimed leftists don’t even pretend to have any clue how to start a revolution, whilst demanding it as the only possible course of action.
Tbf, they’re mostly well aware that they’re too few in number to violently overthrow the system. So the opening of the OP is a bit of a strawman
Otoh they watch people looting an electronics store on tv and interpret it as ‘something is brewing’
There absolutely are folks precisely what the OP is talking about. One verbatim quote from an exchange I had: “Revolution is necessary, electoralism cannot work.”
He was absolutely adamant that voting is stupid and people shouldn’t bother because we need “true communism” that cannot come from voting.
True leftism is when you blindly vote lib, support capitalism, and obey the wealthy like a good puppy
There is no vote this election that will result in a better system. I’m not even sure there’s a vote that won’t result in a worse one.
People were saying the same about Biden and look at all the stuff he did. Green energy, ira, drug price controls, chips act, etc. So yes voting Dems will give you a better system.
Stein
One day you’ll understand what “non voting leftists” truly mean. When kamala wins, and the world still spirals into fascism, maybe you’ll see what they mean
What the fuck are you on about. The other guy is saying, on record, he’s the fascist.
Your side has been saying the world was going to end since Obama was elected.
It’s the same, tired, racist, bullshit.
Fuck off, Nazi.
At “best” they are an accelerationist, seeing Trump as a useful idiot to burn it all down, and then they can swoop in and “save” us. At worse, you’ve reached the Kremlin Election Emergency Hotline…
I’d vote for kamala, thank god i’m not a USer. I’m just saying that the only way someone like trump can get there is when progressives stop being progressive, when democratic politicians are not pressured in pushing the overton window left, then inevitably fascists will throw it to the right. Your shitty attitude is part of the problem and your refusal to even entertain any thought outside the voting binary shows how much of a tool you are
Disingenuous. Nobody is suggesting not to vote outside the binary; what they’re suggesting is to be realistic, rational, intelligent, and understand that you can’t start a race at the finish line.
There is no viable third party in America on a presidential scale. Period.
This does not mean there never will be.
But no, that change is not ever going to happen by a sudden upset win in the presidency. Ever. EVER. If you give a shit about breaking the binary, get out in the fucking streets and do the hard but necessary work of building a third party up from the roots. If you want to see a Green Party president, then put in the work of proving first that Green Party local representatives, school board members, etc., are worthy candidates with a proven track record. (Green is just an example, substitute it with whatever you want and don’t get caught up in that irrelevant choice)
Yes, this is long, and yes, this sucks. It doesn’t matter. Life sucks. This is how real change happens.
Unless you’re just an accelerationist, in which case, fuck you for being willing to risk the lives of countless decent citizens just because you’re too lazy to do the hard work of building a movement up from the ground floor. Revolution might be necessary, but you’re a dick if you run to it before exhausting more reasonable less-violent options.
Bottom line, being in reality means understanding that the presidential election is a binary until we do the hard work so that it isn’t, and pouting about it isn’t protest; it’s bending over and taking whatever they want to give you in abject impotency.
This debate is not exclusive to the election run, it’s just that you ignore it until the finish line then berate people for “talking about it only at the end”
Absolute bullshit. The people who are actually boots on ground doing the work are not the people making the claims. They know the hard work that is necessary and they know the benefit of voting even if the impact is incremental. The whole objection is that the people who talk about protest voting are the ones who only drop into the game at the finish line.
Again, just because you don’t see it it doesn’t mean it’s not there
What are you talking about. Every time the Dems go left they lose, so they go to the center to find voters. Want them to be more progressive? Then give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
Glad you’re not live from Moscow! But I didn’t make it a binary choice. The stupid fucking GOP did by nominating the Orange Shitstain of a fascist. Never Trump conservatives will be a huge part of Harris being elected. So let us get this election out of the way, get the shitstain incarcerated, and then we can keep pushing the agenda left. For the most part I agree with you, and voted 3rd party pretty consistently up to 2016.
The problem is that everytime is “let’s wait for the election then push them left” and it never works.
This is not the fault of voters or non voters, it’s that American democracy is not a democracy, the parties never listen to the will of the people. And that’s why voting ultimately doesn’t change anything, because it’s just a pretext to make you think you are making a difference. As important as it is to vote, that is how our leaders view it.
Maybe you were right. Fuck man. I don’t know.
Why so angry? NPC moment for real. If god forbid i was American i’d vote for kamala but this high and mighty attitude of never holding your politicians accountable and ostracizing anyone who even dares whisper such thing is exactly what allows fascists like trump to reach the vote. Your blind rage for any kind of complex thought that goes beyond “blue good and red bad” is not as democratic as you think.
Drink a goddamn chamomile
Withholding your vote isn’t punishing your politicians, it’s punishing yourself. Absolutely nothing about voting implies you cannot hold your politicians accountable.
I’ve never talked about not voting, if you read my comments. I just think acting high and mighty towards disillusioned people is part of the problem
And I think you’re wrong. I think coddling people and indulging their juvenile entitlement desires to take their ball and go home does real world harm.
If you view a section of the electorate as children that will push back on you and ‘go home’ then continue to engage them in patronizing ways, your acting against your own desires when you simply could have been quiet. Therefore, you also are doing real world harm. You just feel like your harm is somehow more just.
If the people you insist on patronizing don’t show up, you lose the election, is that worth feeling morally superior to someone else?
Get off your horse, pardner. No one talked about coddling. Just fricking talk to people like you actually want to understand their POV instead of feeling like you’re the only moral people in the world.
Incredibly hypocritical and “”“juvenile”“” is how you choose to act
Who says not to hold them accountable? People are merely saying, when it comes down to it, vote knowing the actually possible outcomes for your preference. If someone is particularly bad, vote against them, if someone with a shot who is really good, vote for them.
Where was all the “we are just holding them accountable” during the primaries? Why wasn’t there a movement to challenge Biden in the primary, if it were so important to hold him accountable?
People are justifiably suspicious that in all the ways that could matter (down ballot, primaries, even day to day protests outside of election season) the “revolutionary left” is suspiciously quiet and suddenly they are yelling from the rooftops in the singular race that they can not “win”, only screw up.
That’s just false, protests and criticisms happen outside of races too, you just don’t see it
There was a movement to hold biden accountable, you just ignored it
Now explain to me what of the measures you are taking to prevent this are somehow rendered moot by the act of voting.
I am not American, i am not talking about any measure, i am just saying that alienating people already alienated by politics doesn’t help either
And coddling people from the harsh realities of their circumstances helps them even less. It’s time to buck up, buttercup.
Talking to people instead of constantly judging them =\ coddling
For a party called “democrats” you don’t really act like your neighbor is a person like you. They disagree so they should suck it up and do what you want.
Look in the mirror and find the source of the dems losses. Not non-voters. Your attitude
And how does non voting help
How does voting help? It’s just a dumb question, and I, personally, am not saying people shouldn’t vote. I’m just saying not to act like voting will stop fascism and not voting will enable it, it’s just not that simple
Yappin. Non answer
You read whatever you want to read.
Nobody is saying or thinking that sincerely, but the idea of not voting is like playing a game of chess against facism and refusing to use your Queen.
Nobody thinks voting is the whole solution or the whole problem, and nobody thinks that all of our problems hinge solely on the vote.
Voting doesn’t solve everything and it doesn’t replace hard work. But rationally speaking, in raw terms of time and effort input vs impact output, the low cost of entry of voting simply makes it one of the most impactful things you can do to affect change in America pound-for-pound in terms of effort, period. Change is hard and voting in most places takes less than a hour total. If you tell me you’re trying to fight the good fight but you won’t sacrifice one hour for something with the equivalent punching weight many many times greater than that effort, I will assume you are either an absolute idiot or you’re just here in bad faith.
A non vote is a vote, a vote against an elecotral system that doesn’t work. The fact that said system ignores non voters is a fault in democracy, not in the people.
Now, i can agree with saying “look, this candidate is so much worse that it’s worth it to go even if you don’t like it” What i don’t agree with is telling people that are OBJECTIVELY right in not wanting to be part of endorsing a genocider that they are like nazis, that the world is gonna crumble because of them.
Maybe if you tried to understand their point of view they might change their minds. That is the problem with you americans, like good patriarchs everything is a binary and if you do not think the same as me you’re automatically the worst interpretation of my enemy. You yourself might have not beahved like this, and i appreciate it, but most people in these comments automatically assumed that I wouldn’t vote or that I would encourage others to not do it.
I am just saying, stop being so judgemental when you don’t really know people’s reasoning for what they choose to do. People hate this attitude and the DEM party constantly uses it. No wonder they lose when it matters the most.
You’re never going to get an election victory that results in “now our opponent is dead forever. Congratulations you can stop paying attention and don’t have to try anymore”
There is no such thing as a final victory, you lose when you stop trying. No one wins forever.
I’m starting to suspect the anti-vax stuff is just people dressing up their fear of getting a needle, and the anti-electorial stuff is just people dressing up their excuse for why they don’t want to leave the house to run a quick errand.
It funny to me that “trying” for you only amounts to voting.
I do more mutual aid than you and I still find the time to vote
You keep moving the goal posts in your commnets.
No, i’m just surrounded by people who don’t know reading comprehension. I never said people shouldn’t vote, i am not the projection of the people you despise, i am my own individual with my own view. Ppl here are talking to me like i am endorsing trump while i am just fucking saying you should also look to yourselves and your methods if you really want to find out why people don’t vote
