- cross-posted to:
- weirdnews@real.lemmy.fan
- cross-posted to:
- weirdnews@real.lemmy.fan
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Stories like this are sometimes more complicated than they appear. The infamous examples of $500 hammers, for example, were anti sparking hammers for working around flammables or munitions, hence requiring special materials, certification, and low production runs.
For this case, we have liquid hand soap dispensed by a pump. Pumps require a sealed vessel. Unlike commercial planes, military planes are required to anticipate prolonged operation with an unpressurized cabin. At max altitude of a C17, atmospheric pressure is only 20% of sea level. Off the shelf dispensers are unlikely to be designed to withstand that pressure difference, let alone function normally. In a high demand environment like aerospace, even apparently minor failures like an exploding soap container needs to be taken seriously due to the possibility of unexpected cascading failures. Why not use bar soap, then? Unfortunately this too has complications, like not being able to be securely mounted, liquid soaps having superior hygiene and cross contamination characteristics, and necessity for military standardized soap, sometimes designed for heavy metal, eg lead, which is likely if the cargo were munitions.
This unusual set of requirements unlikely to be seen outside the military context, so whether designed by Boeing or off the shelf the unit would likely have low quantity manufacturing runs, significantly increasing per unit costs. Combine that with the necessary certifications and the per unit costs balloon even further.
While a soap dispenser having an 80x markup seems absurd, it might be more reasonable than it seems at first glance. To be clear, there absolutely is military contractor graft. I just don’t expect even a $10,000 soap dispenser would be a substantial proportion if it even within the C17.
The infamous examples of $500 hammers, for example, were anti sparking hammers for working around flammables or munitions, hence requiring special materials, certification, and low production runs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Commission
I’m not one to praise Reagan, but the Packard Commission picked off some incredibly low hanging fruit. The $435 hammer ($1235 adjusted for inflation) was a boondoggle by any standard. That it was overcharged by a factor of 2-3x instead of the sloppy journalism implying a 100x markup doesn’t refute the fact that these contracts were corrupt on their face.
While a soap dispenser having an 80x markup seems absurd, it might be more reasonable than it seems at first glance.
Either the equipment could be purchased wholesale much cheaper (as was often the case even for industrial grade goods) or the production should have been insourced to the department that had a bespoke demand.
The fact that Boeing exists at all is absurd, given the degree to which government monopsony and security concerns force them to act as a department within the public sector. But the extortionary rates illustrate the fraud that is the reason these public-private relationships exist.
Your standard one-way-valve/flexible-tube dispenser, for example, would leak quite horribly at altitude (or burst), neither of which is desirable.
You take all those factors THEN double the cost. Government contracting in a nutshell.
Let’s not also forget the fleet of passenger aircraft for distinguished persons, maintained by the military, with everything custom made and embroidered with presidential seals and produced in the USA and run through vigorous inspection to prevent microphone or pagers or something inside your soap dispenser.
soap dispensers
Sounds like money laundering was going on.
You ever see the video of the snap on socket being sold for 50k?
This is a regular occurrence in the MIC, it only comes up when you fail to deliver on something and the Pentagon actually decides to open an investigation.
Why? It’s common knowledge you can easily ask 300% of your default price if it’s the government. And soap dispensers are kind of needed. Nowadays companies often buy the non-touchy expensive ones. So it isn’t really too weird.
So… what you’re saying is too big to fail corporations are leaches and nationalizing them would be more efficient and cost effective than the current wealth transfer to shareholders?
I think the issue is far more nuanced.
These kind of companies and their board members want as much money as possible so they are “set for life”. If you as a country make sure that everybody is protected from the bottom extreme of financials, than the top extremes are far less likely to happen.
This means far better social care, a social security net to protect the people, better minimum wages, higher taxes for the top and lower ones for the bottom, affordable healthcare, etc. These protections make getting rich quite useless. It also makes it so the rich have nobody to make their mansions and fancy cars for them. Why would we? Money only has value if you can spend it, so it’s in our best interest to devalue having a lot of it.
I don’t see any upside for nationalizing industries except the ones that are an absolute necessity to society, like healthcare, public transit, water, electricity, etc. Anything else is not healthy as it will likely hinder innovation and healthy competition. It would also give a government too much power.
The companies that still try to take advantage obviously need to be stopped. But trying to stop them individually in a mostly capitalistic western world wastes so much resources that the next big shady company can do whatever they want in the meantime.
TL;DR: fix the underlying causes instead of trying to fix the result.
It’s common knowledge you can easily ask 300% of your default price if it’s the government.
primarily because government requirements are often way more strict than standard commercial or consumer… If someone sets up a contract with you that requires you do 100 things you normally don’t do… you’re going to charge more. 3x is likely fair in most cases where compliance becomes a thing just for the cost of talking to counsel about meeting those requirements.
I think you’re only thinking of digital projects.
Think of road construction, building construction, catering, cleaning, and so much more.
I’m not… Building a private road on your 10 acre plot is also simply cheaper than maintaining a DOT Approved road that can handle a full semi+trailer.
The same thing exists virtually everywhere. When government is involved, there is some standard written somewhere on what standards need to be met. In order to guarantee to meet those standards/tests there’s costs associated with that.
But- but- inefficiency
Isn’t that what the military is for? The rich need a public institution that simply pays them what they want.
War is a racket
Great quote. Better book. Written by “A True American Hero.”
Soap dispensers in general are a fucking racket. They’re like 50$ a refill
Boeing keeps stepping on the rake.
I mean, wouldn’t you if the rake handle had huge bags of cash tied to it? They’ll always step on the rake but they’re practiced enough that they only get hit in the face occasionally.
It’s almost as if another company with interests in a different but similar field that’s run by a fucking psychopath is trying to get rid of the competition
Cool I’m so glad I got wildly overpriced soap dispensers on planes I’ll never board for the fucking huge chunk of cash our useless fucking government takes from me instead of healthcare, or roads that aren’t full of potholes, or properly functioning public transit, I love this country and my life
Thats because the US military has been a blank cheque for defense contractors for a long time.
This is exactly what happens when the system is based on lowest bid contracts.
Does it come with free refills for life or something?
You didn’t think they actually spent ten thousand dollars for a hammer and thirty thousand for a toilet seat, did you?
Came here to post this lol
I’m so fucking glad I’m not the only one who IMMEDIATELY thought of that guy saying that line
There’s a bunch of us it seems 😂
What’s the reference?
What kindernacht said.
Judd Hirsch plays Jeff Goldblum’s character’s dad, who has low tolerance for bullshit lol
Independence Day (1996)
They just walked in to the underground lab beneath Area 51. The president was curious how it was paid for.
deleted by creator
I knew someone would post this fast and I was not dissapointed.
For its part, Boeing representatives announced they are “reviewing the report, which appears to be based on an inapt comparison of the prices paid for parts that meet aircraft and contract specifications and designs versus basic commercial items that would not be qualified or approved for use on the C-17,” the company said in a statement.
looks dubiously at dispenser
In what way is the right-hand soap dispenser not adequately qualified?
EDIT: It looks like the C-17 can fly pressurized, so I don’t think that it can be undergoing pressure changes, which is the one thing that I could think of.
The COTS unit shown there is not tested and certified to the contract requirements Boeing was working to. Simple as. If the price ridiculous? Absolutely yes. But you cannot go to a home hardware store and slap one in a plane.
If I can slap it in a collapsible sub, I can slap it in an airplane!
Besides, it’s not like it’s supposed to be what’s holding the door plug on.
Everyone single part on a plane has to be certified and from a certified supplier that goes through a stupid process to be certified.
Well, some of it ain’t stupid.
Imagine the shortcuts Boeing would take if they were beholden to no certifications at all.
Yeah we’d have planes falling out of the skies!
Or worse, unplanned.
Wait
Well ya can but you’re taking some risks if you do. Your soap dispenser might not work worth a shit if you haven’t tested it.
And that’s how everyone got cholera
I’m 90% sure these deals are a way to funnel money into defense contractors without having a suspicious paper trail.
Overcharge a bit here and there, and by sheer volume you get a nice shadow budget to build and operate things that aren’t even supposed to exist.
Welcome to the MIC. Have a gold star and a bunch of war crimes that would make Satan question his existence.
The cabin is usually pressurized to the equivalent of 8000 ft asl. So the dispenser does have to deal with pressure changes. A simple vent hole aught to take care of that though.
Also, as the safety briefing says, “we do not anticipate a change in cabin pressure,” but if a rapid decompression should occur, there was probably some provision made so that the soap dispenser doesn’t just shatter or explode or something.
I would hate not to be able to use the dispenser if the plane lost cabin pressure… how would I ever survive dying if I had dirty hands when it happened?..
Slippery soap all over the floor would complicate matters.
😂
Pretty sure loss of cabin pressure doesn’t equal death
well, then there is no need for the masks that drop down either then? I was making a joke, no need to be so serious? 🙂
And why exactly did they pay it?
I work in this space. There’s a wide variety of reasons, a company being dumb and greedy is definitely among them but typically just a tiny part of the equation. The biggest thing is certified vendors. The military/government is incredibly strict with who they’ll contract with. Which means the supply is incredibly limited on many things, which in turn means that companies will ratchet up prices a crazy amount in part to deal with the goofy standards that the government requires on their goods but also because they know the demand far outweighs the supply.
There is also the burden of time. The US government drags their feet an INSANE amount on projects. It scales with size as well. The larger the project the slower things move almost every time. It very frequently gets to a point where they need stuff done right now because they waited too long and will pay pretty much any price to do it.
There is also the fact that the military is operating with a budget chalk full of “fuck you money.” In short, money is immaterial. Half the time they don’t even look at the price, whatever it costs doesn’t matter, just get it done and get it done right.
My company marks up shit an insane amount and I know for a fact pretty much every other certified vendor is as well. I dunno about 8k% (lol) markup but honestly that doesn’t shock me. The prices I’ve seen are jaw dropping. And they pretty much never get negotiated or rejected.
It’s often the military’s own flowed down certification requirements that result in significantly higher costs
Yeah. The expensive soap dispenser probably had to pass shock and vibration testing, thermal stress testing, and explosive atmosphere testing… Because that was in the requirements.
Probably because trying to fight the bullshit ends up costing more in the long run.
I mean… Just don’t pay and get planes from Airbus next time…
This isn’t oniony. It happens all the time. The ongoing theory is that it’s done to cover top secret expenditures.
It’s much more likely to be corporate kickbacks for political donations.
I would say kinda based if it wasn’t my tax dollars going toward that crap. Starts to put the massively over-inflated military budget into perspective.
