Something that i find prettyd disgusting these days is how certain people put their political ideologies / viewpoints over human lives, for example, celebrating the russian invasion of ukraine because it is “a blow against US / NATO imperialism” completely ignoring all the warcrimes, the deaths, and the suffering generated by that war, the same happening with the palestinian genocide because “Israel is the only working democracy on the middle east”, acting like their ideoligies are going to bring back to life all the dead people somehow
I know, and it’s disgusting. People also do it by prioritising finance / career options etc over the lives of unborn babies for the sake of “bodily autonomy”
As opposed to other people telling you what you can and cannot do with your own body?
Do you not see the implications of that?
But it isn’t your body though. And intentionally causing a miscarriage isn’t a normal function of your body.
Your argument is that my body isn’t mine?
You’re so wrong it’s not even funny. Maybe try living without resorting to advice from a book sloppily written (and rewritten) ages ago to dominate people afraid of shit they don’t understand?
Then again, logic is clearly not your strong suit.
A foetus isn’t part of your body. It’s a separate being with it’s own blood type and DNA and can also feel pain. Just because it is in you doesn’t mean it is you.
Also, I’m sorry, but I’m really confused to what you’re saying? Is that a critique of modern medicine or something??? Like of course medical textbooks (what I assume you were referring to, unless there was a specific one) have been rewritten, we’re actively researching how to combat different diseases and prevent fatalities. Are you trying to promote homeopathy or something?
A foetus isn’t part of your body.
If it’s not part of my body, I can just remove it and it will just survive on it’s own, it has blood type and DNA so should be ok.
If you abandon a born child on it’s own, it wouldn’t survive very long either.
So is a blastula also a child? You don’t see the difference between the ability of a foetus to survive outside it’s mother and that of a born child?
While it’s fun watching you trying to weasel your way out of the discussion at hand your comments in other threads betrayed your thoughts on the matter already. You know full well which fucking book I’m talking about, and it isn’t compatible with modern medical texts in the least.
If you want to believe in bullshit you’re free to do so, but why the fuck do you think anyone would be the least bit interested in what your imaginary friend thinks about abortion?
Who is using the Bible as a medical textbook, and at what point did I mention the Bible in regards to abortion? It’s completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Your whole stance on abortion is guided by your beliefs, you’ve made that much glaringly obvious. There’s not a single other reason for anyone to be against other people’s abortions like you are. Each and everyone is responsible for their own decisions, you don’t get to involve yourself.
It’s utter insanity, yet you spout it like it’s some sort of inherent truth. That’s what zealots do, not normal people.
Don’t live inside other peoples bodies and you are safe.
And the people in Gaza should simply stop living in Gaza.
I see, you have difficulties differentiating things. I help you my friend: a human body is not a country. You are welcome.
And a factory is not a country either, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have safety standards or worker’s rights
Not sure how that is related to anything, but religious people come up with the funniest explanations - so entertain me.
If they are unborn they are not alive.
That’s just flat out incorrect. There’s barely any difference between a baby that is in a body and out of it
Born - come into existence as a result of birth. So check mate fundamentalist. Not born, not existent. But sure if you want to argue on a more sane level - than how the fuck is a blastula the same as a whole developed human?
You are also existing in the womb… You don’t just magically pop out of thin air 💀
A one month old baby isn’t a whole developed human either. Doesn’t mean we should kill it. I don’t understand why we are drawing a line at all on when it’s okay to kill somebody. It’s never okay.
It’s never okay.
Definitely ok when someone is trying to kill you. But the whole point is that the concept of killing does not really applies well to a blastula to beginn with.
I think abortion is fine if the mother might die from giving birth.
So now it’s somehow ok and necessary to draw a line. So you draw the line when the life of mother is in danger - so you are just as pro baby murder as everyone else, how the tables have turned.
Every political position mostly tries to define in which ways violence is to be used. Realising this and knowing power is already established before you were even born. Seeing violence being used against your oppressor(s) is often times the only thing we feel we can still hope for.
Or from another perspective, is the war in Ukraine worth it for Ukraine or Russia, can you really say a war with so many deaths is preferable to being a russian subject, or an international embarrassment of the Russian state. Is the self determination of Palestinians really worth the terror and the war. We’re the PIRA justified in bombing London for their brother’s and sisters discrimination and deaths in Ireland. It’s ultimately all subjective, wether the violence of the system you fight against is bad enough you can bring yourself to fight.
Nothing brings back anyone but as long as there are people who want to, and do turn us into their machines, we have to rely on our interpretation of that being wrong, and fight them for it.
I put human lives over political ideologies, and I’m pretty alone with that.
I’m a pacifist to the point that I’m opposed to the concept of “self defense” on a national level.
If someone tries to kill you, by all means defend yourself.
But this concept doesn’t translate to groups of millions of people, killing each other for years over who’s in charge.Interesting. What do you think Ukraine should do then if not fight back against the Russian invasion?
What India did against the British – sabotage all Russian-led businesses in Ukraine, and refuse to cooperate with the occupiers.
It would lead to a great deal of suffering for Ukrainians, but the alternative against which this would have to be measured is the current war – with close to one million dead, several million displaced, and no resolution in sight anywhere.Well Putin for sure would be happy if Ukraine would choose this path. He’s quite used to brutally squash dissidents. Russia also has absolutely no qualm to disperse a group throughout their country to destroy their cultural identity. They are already doing so with the Ukrainian children they’ve kidnapped.
So sorry, but your proposal seems to be really naiv and not taking into account how fucking brutal Putin’s Russia is to people stepping even slightly out of line.
your proposal seems to be really naiv and not taking into account how fucking brutal Putin’s Russia is
Pacifists are always confronted with this criticism. Every time:
“This war is different. This war is justified, cause this attacker is truly evil. We need to stop this evil guy by all means necessary, even if it completely destroys the country we’re trying to defend and kills an entire generation of its inhabitants.”I’m not naive, at all. I have no illusions about Russia. I just believe there is no option available that will save Ukraine, and war is always the worst option available. No matter how justified it was in the beginning, in the end all that’s left is war.
What will stop Russia from doing the same to more countries?
The same thing that lead to the decolonization of almost all countries that were once occupied - it’s neither possible nor profitable to rule over a populace that hates you and doesn’t identify themselves as subjects to your rule in the long term.
Ah, so we should just let them attack countries until the internal problems get too big and the empire falls from within? And those countries should just suck it up in the meantime?
Look, I have no good solution for this. No one has, the currently accepted solution is killing millions until the problem disappears behind the problems caused by the war.
I’m not telling anyone or any country what to do. I’m just saying, I won’t ever support or participate in any war, defensive or otherwise.So you admit your position doesn’t solve anything.
Tell me you 19 years old, without telling me your 19 years old…
I’m old enough to have talked to people who experienced WW1, as an adult.
You can be 19 and still talk to people who experienced WW1…
If you’re 19 and had a meaningful conversation with people who experienced WW1 as an adult, those people would have to be at least 113 years old and still mentally fit.
In my case it was my grandma who hacked off the hand of a home intruder with a fire axe and threw it in a nearby river cause there was no police you could call in 1918.
I’m trans. Tell me more. 🤷♀️
I don’t know why people are okay with trans people dying as well. Some people were absolutely sick when Brianna Ghey was brutally murdered.
You should ask your fellow Christians, trans folks are not so popular with the church if you haven’t noticed.
Here’s an example of putting ideology before people. I see on here regularly people who believe in the Christian god but are told that them looking at the doctrine of their holy books critically and trying to change the nature of their churches to be better is a useless endeavor and use the opportunity to snipe at people of faith.
During they holocaust while some Christian organizations were supportive of Nazis others assumed great personal risk and extracted hundreds of thousands of targeted people out of the country ro safety because of their faith. Their contributions were not small or easy and should not be ignored.
So often on here when trans issues come up people choose to use the occasion to put their personal religious trauma or prejudice before the needs of solidarity in the fight. They snipe at other trans allies for being “bad leftists” for believing in god. The trans community does not have the luxury of petty in-fighting, if choosing who our protectors will be. We cannot be choosing beggars for solidarity and help. Everything helps. There are trans people of faith who feel isolated in their need for community of other people of faith. There are churches that are key to changing people’s minds, there are people of faith who need support and encouragement to keep fighting in their corner because creating an enduring culture of acceptance inside a religion can also create long term security. The needs of our community are varied. We of the trans community are not weapons to be weilded to score hits against our own allies so you can feel good. When you do so you are putting yourself first in opposition to the goals and needs of trans people. You want to hate on people of faith there are lots of people who could use the distraction but wearing out people who are actually empathetic and who we need fresh for the fight is not doing us a service.
Allies of faith, keep doing what you are doing. I may not personally believe in your gods but you have my respect and thanks because I have friends who are alive because of you.
I see on here regularly people who believe in the Christian god but are told that them looking at the doctrine of their holy books critically and trying to change the nature of their churches to be better is a useless endeavor and use the opportunity to snipe at people of faith.
Everyone who tries to change the Christian doctrine to be more in tune with the actual spirit and teaching of Jesus, has my respect.
During they holocaust while some Christian organizations were supportive of Nazis others assumed great personal risk and extracted hundreds of thousands of targeted people out of the country ro safety because of their faith. Their contributions were not small or easy and should not be ignored.
And during the inquisition Christians tortured and burned people for basically fun of it. As any dogmatic believe system you can use Christianity to justify what ever you feel like.
So often on here when trans issues come up people choose to use the occasion to put their personal religious trauma or prejudice before the needs of solidarity in the fight. They snipe at other trans allies for being “bad leftists” for believing in god.
Sure, but the dude I’m talking to is a christian fundamentalist who believes that abortion is murder and on trans issues just stated that trans people should indeed not be killed (pretty sure the person does adhere to christian dogma of two genders, even so they dance around an answer), wich I would not classify as ally.
It is still something I see very often levied at members of this community who don’t deserve it. It is so very common for people who have a history of just mentioning their faith in the same breath as their support of trans people getting completely dog piled on by people who having sighted a believer to decide to try and debate their faith and hurl abuse.
More generally I wish people would realize what they are actually doing when they are doing that.
Possibly. I personally don’t have any problems with personal faith but a general dislike for organized religions. In this instance I replied because I’m discussion abortions with the same person in the same thread.
Sometimes people’s veiws on abortion are dearly held and we can ask only that they not inflict those beliefs on others.
This person, despite their stance on abortion, seems at least fairly progressive on their stance on trans people. Maybe not a gold star of support yes but was coming after them undermining them for the general state of the church in regards to gender minorities ultimately nessisary? This habit of individual members of a faith getting shoved on the back foot having to defend all of Christianity simultaneously for beliefs they don’t personally hold is a way to express your distaste of organized religion… But Scapegoating isn’t pleasant to be on the receiving end of.
Every Christian I have talked to about this subject is vehemently against killing transgender people. What does my belief in God have to do with my opinion on not killing trans people?
You don’t have to strictly be for killing them, you can just be against their existence, and someone else will take that to its logical conclusion.
“Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest”
I think it is true that Christians who are against violence against trans people should be far more vocal over it. But the general thing I hear isn’t really wanting to get rid of trans people, more of if they should be validated as their desired gender or not, or how children should be approached about the topic.
the existence of trans people is quite literally conditional on them being validated as their desired gender.
if you don’t validate them, then when they keep doing trans stuff (like transitioning), you will freak out and attempt to stop them. For example by sending them to conversion therapy. And it should be obvious to any basically humanist person why that’s a bad idea.
No, because there are no effective conversion therapies that work, and it can make the situation worse. It’s not a binary. You don’t have to choose between “oh yeah sure let’s change the signs on bathrooms! You can compete in women’s sports and be in women spaces, too! Oh and please go and tell these children all about your sex change!” and “send them all to conversion therapy at gunpoint”. I don’t know why you keep jumping to conclusions so quickly and freak out at me stating the fact that killing people is abhorrent. Because apparently I am not allowed to condemn the murder of a young girl because I, like 2.38 billion other people, think that Jesus of Nazareth from 2024 years ago made a convincing case for actually being God.
Christians are not really known for being champions for transgender folks. Catholics and Orthodox are official opposed to the existence of trans folks as a whole, since it does not work well with their binary view on gender.
Okay? That’s a them problem. I’m not a Roman Catholic nor an Orthodox. Still never seen an Orthodox or a Catholic person advocate for the killing of trans people though.
Still never seen an Orthodox or a Catholic person advocate for the killing of trans people though.
They just say you don’t exist, which at least does not help.
I’ve seen Atheists say that. Including Dawkins. Killing people and saying someone’s belief in their own gender is or isn’t valid are different things, though.
The people who boil complex geopolitical events down to “haha western imperialism is finally getting challenged, lol shitlib get owned” are immature teenagers arguing in bad faith or on things they don’t understand. That would be what we call a “tankie”.
The same goes for those blindly supporting Israel because “omg hamas is terrorist” or whatever the hell they even justify it with anymore. A lot of those may just be quiet racists or fascists happy to see a dictator like Netanyahu have his way with Western support- obviously never thinking for a second that they themselves have an equal chance of being on the receiving end of such treatment, not the delivering end.
Both of these situations are absolutely horrible. But neither can really be boiled down to simple ideology over human lives as much as the lower-quality people love to do so. People want things to fit how they think so that they can feel good about their thoughts. Many things get shaped in that lens and it gets worse every day. And, unfortunately, the only real solution is just not to interact. Their minds can never be changed once they set up their world view to be self supporting.
Your views mirror mine closely. Ukraine’s war is awful, but it never needed to happen if Putin wasn’t such a trigger-happy, imperialistic dictator. His war is purely for territorial and ideological expansion of control at the expense of human life. Same goes for Palestine, while the operation was framed as being anti-terrorism at first, Netanyahu has gotten completely unhinged and fallen out of line in some crazy drive to control all of Gaza and eliminate Israel’s competition. However, I support Ukraine and do not support Israel, despite these being philosophically contradictory in the terms of “preserving human life over ideologies” since Ukraine is still killing people. The context makes the conscience.
The people who boil complex geopolitical events down to “haha western imperialism is finally getting challenged,
I mean that is what is factually happening right now. The US can no longer hold its diplomatic and military weight. The US and its allies are unable to prevent the Houthis from succesfull attacks in the Red Sea. On Israels genocide in Palestine the European countries are dividing. Putin is managing to divide the US internally and to have some European countries break away to his side. China doesn’t give a fuck about US sanctions anymore and there is elaborate systems to bypass sanctions. As a result both Russian energy exports are laundered before being sold to the EU and US and western components end up in russian military equipment.
Cheering on the current prospecting alternative is stupid, as it is just another imperialist system.
But it is urgently necessary to realise the changing reality and use the window to create a world order, that puts all imperialists to limits and embraces a rule based international order of equal countries with equal people. Especially the EU could take this opportunity to renounce the remnants of its imperial ways and the subtle and open supremacist believes.
The EU countries made the terrible mistake to consider Trump an anomaly and were all to eager to remain complacent on Bidens presidency. But Trump wasn’t just a pimple you wait to pass. He is the symptom of a deeper instability in the US.
