Today FUTO released an application called Grayjay for Android-based mobile phones. Louis Rossmann introduced the application in a video (YouTube link). Grayjay as an application is very promising, but there is one point I take issue with: Grayjay is not an Open Source application. In the video Louis explains his reason behind the custom license, and while I do agree with his reason, I strong disagree with his method. In this post I will explain what Open Source means, how Grayjay does not meet the criteria, why this is an issue, and how it can be solved.
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It prevents commercial distribution of the program, and thus it discriminates against persons and groups who wish to distribute the program commercially.
Uhhhh what? That’s not how any of that works.
“No discrimination against persons or groups” is about protected classes.
Interpreting it to mean “anyone for any reason” would mean that open source allows people to simply assert sole ownership of it, because to not allow them to is to discriminate against people who want to assert sole ownership. That’s an ad absurdum broadening of the OSI ethos.
Edit: a helpful commenter has found where on OSI’s website it does prohibit non-commercial-use clauses…
…and the blog author was in fact incorrect in their assertion that it violates the personal discrimination clause (clause 5). It is a violation of Clause 6, “No Discrimination Against Field of Endeavor.” Also, the section specifically talks about prohibiting its use by a business, which is not the same as its sale by a business.
Let’s say Alice develops an application with maintainer lock-in, but for whatever reason the need for a fork arises. Bob has been studying the code and knows how to maintain in properly. However, because Alice’s code has a non-commercial redistribution clause Bob cannot make money off his maintainership. If the software is sufficiently complex that Bob has to spend a lot of time on it, or if Bob must be able to provide paid support (e.g. for regulatory reasons) he is not allowed to do so. Only Alice can demand financial compensation and thus in practice she is the only one who can afford to maintain the code.
Oh no. This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else’s code.
This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else’s code.
That happens all the time, never has been a problem, and it should not ever be.
“People steal the profits from others’ labor all the time, that’s normal and good.” - You
People build on top of each other’s work all the time. That’s normal and good.
If the people selling are passing someone else’s work as their own, that’s stealing. Otherwise, it’s just Free Software working as intended.
If someone is writing software but wants to prevent redistribution, then go ahead and make a license that forbids it. But then don’t get to call it “Open Source” or anything like that.
If the people selling are passing someone else’s work as their own, that’s stealing. Otherwise, it’s just Free Software working as intended.
Do you not see the contradiction in this statement? Where do you find the line of what is stealing and “working as intented”?
If someone is writing software but wants to prevent redistribution, then go ahead and make a license that forbids it. But then don’t get to call it “Open Source” or anything like that.
There are so many licenses for this model already, I’m inclined to believe that you havent actually published any OSS yourself and your attitude in these threads are mildly said, off putting.
I am a big fan of OSI and support their work, but you are treating them (based in what i can read in this thread) like some holy, all defining entity, of what is open source. They are not, and true open source, cannot, and should not, ever derive its power from a central agency setting rules and definitions. If that happens, that will be the end of open source.
Please stop gatekeeping OSS, it hurts all of us
Edit: some autocomplete stupid grammar
Do you not see the contradiction in this statement? Where do you find the line of what is stealing and “working as intented”?
If you redistribute someone else’s open source code as open source but change nothing why would I get it from you and not the original developer? There is no incentive and no reward to “steal”.
If you make enough changes to create additional value I might and then it is “working as intended”
The developer can yank the software from under you, he can change the monetisation model, or he can drop support for the software. With Free or Open Source software you could just take over the responsibility of maintainership or outsource it some other developer you can trust instead.
Sure, good point but in the real world this will never happen.
If Mozilla suddenly decides to implode you won’t just casually take over Firefox or hire another maintainer to develop it for you.
In theory this sounds nice but for any software that is of any real complexity (and thus use) it is pretty much irrelevant.
Also, this all has nothing to do with Grayjay unless the person who takes it over decides to start charging money for it. Anyone is free (libre) to maintain it and distribute it for free (gratis).
If you take over a project of this scale you need to make this your job and thus get paid. There’s a good reason Louis hasn’t just pushed this out as his hobby project but hired developers.
If you can’t it won’t happen. My point is more: If it was possible to take over, would it really happen? Extremely unlikely.
It’s non-free, it’s non-libre, but it does pass the bar of open source software. The OSI, EFF, RMS or whoever don’t have to say it is in order for it to be true.
You can distribute it but there are limitations on it, you can make a fork of Grayjay that is free to use, review, re-distribute and add parts to it adhering to other open source licenses from whence they were developed as long as it’s non-commercial, and doesn’t make any representations on behalf of FUTO or Rossman, essentially.
I personally nerver really understood the whole semantics debate that always unfolds in situations like this. What does it matter if a piece of software is truly libre or how it is licensed as long as the source code is available? Respecting a license is a choice. If you have the code you can fork it. Whether it’s libre or not only influences your ability to put your real name under the fork, doesn’t it?
Personal opinion, but the license is fine, and this is a sensationalist headline. The author’s claims are not proven correct, and they even write:
The second point is weird. I am not certain, but this too could be considered discrimination…
They are not certain because they are incorrect.
As it stands, it sounds like a variant of GPL which they’re using to make sure they don’t get sued if it’s used maliciously, along with
ensuring companies don’t try to profit on what they give away(read comment below for better details).I’m open to changing my mind, but it would need to be changed.
ensuring companies don’t try to profit on what they give away.
That’s a common misunderstanding of FLOSS software: it isn’t about “not letting others profit”, it’s about “you need to give back in order to profit”.
If a company wants to profit from someone else’s GPL licensed software, they can do it in exchange for letting the original company profit from the second one’s changes to the software.
If you don’t want to profit from other people’s changes to your software, then by all means, use a more restrictive license, there won’t be changes in the first place.
If you’re a user expecting the software to work after the original company got bored with it or gone under, then you want either a different company to take over, or you’re SOL.
I thought that open source just meant that you could read the source.
It’s how I intuitively read it too, even after decades of being exposed to tech, software, and licenses.
There’s the OSI Open Source Definition, which is a free software definition.
I think the free terminology is clearer because free as in beer vs freedom is more obvious. Either it has a price or it doesn’t. The Libre term is rather common alternative because of the ambiguity. The free as in beer or freedom is a common easy to understand explanation.
There’s no such things for open source. In my subjective experience at least. “Source available” did not establish like Libre. Open is way more broadly ambiguous than free. And whether a license is open or open needs a full understanding and interpretation rather than only 'does it cost or can I use it for free.
Free is a dualist ambiguous differentiation. Open is broadly ambiguous and hard to verify.
I’m getting brain damage from this thread. So many stupid people here.
We have only one rule here…be(e) nice. Your comments are NOT nice…enjoy a weeks vacation from Beehaw.
You skipped the part about wtf the app is and why we should care.
Grayjay is a platform that allows users to view YouTube alongside paid content like Patreon, or even live platforms like Twitch.
So I guess one more middleman between content and consumer.
Edit: their website loaded after 5 mins
So they are like: “don’t open twitch. open our website, it’s literally the same thing”. A super-app for video streaming? Who asked for this, and why?
The idea behind it per the video where they introduced it is that its a means of creators to take ownership of their own content. The idea being that if you follow creator X on youtube you arent actually following creator x you’re following them on youtube. If something happens or youtube removes a video for whatever reason of they have to leave the platform then you lose access to their content.
If you’re on this app you follow creator x on whatever platform they are on. So in theory it’s not just an all in one app but a way to solve the youtube monopoly and make for an easy transition.
In concept I think it sounds really cool, but whether it actually is able to deliver on it’s goals remains to be seen.
Who asked for this, and why?
It exists to reduce dependence on YouTube.
There are bad things to say about Google all day, yet consumers will still line right back up to use Google’s video service without fail. Having that content mixed in with other sites reduces dependence on YouTube over time, as creators consider decentralizing their media presence and posting content on Patreon, Nebula etc, instead of Youtube’s walled garden of Communities, Memberships and of course the channel itself.
IMO right now this app is really for people who want to support OR already are supporting creators, and are displeased with the amount of apps, bad UX and poor integration this experience entails when done outside of Youtube’s platform
If that’s not for you, then maybe the privacy aspect of Grayjay is of interest, where the YouTube integration allows you to control what data is associated with your Google account. Aside from those, most people should probably stick with their existing YouTube client. This app is targeting a specific kind of audience, and fits right in with Rossmann’s
