Some people seem to frame the shooting as justifiable to prevent the potential danger the kids reckless driving would pose to others.
While I personally think this was a completely undefensible escalation of violence on the police’s end, I think there can be some reasonable discussion on what the appropriate level of force to stop the kid from speeding off would be. Sure, why not.
Would I argue a person who is speeding away from the cops while shot is likelier to cause an accident involving others than one who isn’t shot? Also yes.
But having a crowdfunder for the individual that did the shooting, in practice rewarding someone for executing a kid for speeding without a license? What the actual fuck?
I think the danger of becoming a political scapegoat is very real, and when the government wants your head you need every bit of resources you can get.
Like the article says, the crowdfunder is for the family of the officer (as the officer is likely going to jail). French authorities would have immediately stopped a crowdfunder going directly to the officer, as that would be illegal per French law.
This is s tragedy all-in-all but what I would like to know: Nahel M. was 17, therefore driving illegally (no license), why was he doing this? Why didn’t he stop at the checkpoint? Why try to drive away? Was it a stolen car (it had Polish plates)?
Sadly, had Nahel M. stopped and done what the police say, I believe Nahel M. would still be alive. They would have certainly arrested and charged him (reckless driving, no license, possibly stolen car, and so on). Perhaps Nahel M. was afraid of being arrested like this, possibly a justified fear based on his experiences in the banlieue.
However, his attempt to drive away suggests he was aware of his actions being illegal and he wanted to avoid the consequences. Why would one do something illegal in the first place, if one wants to avoid consequences with the police?
I appreciate that you provide more info on what caused the death, but that’s not really what this post is about.
If the officer did his job correctly, there’s no reason to crowdfund for him or his family. He did his job and he gets paid for it.
If he used excessive force and goes to jail - why hand his family more money? As a reward for playing US sheriff?
That crowfund seems just cynical, putting more hurt on the family of the deceased.
Yes, I agree, there is certainly the “screw you”-angle in the crowdfunder! Just look at who created it.
Regardless, there is another angle, perhaps unintentionally, and I think it is more important in the big picture:
The officer will likely never work as a policeman again, regardless if he goes to jail or not.
He likely ends up unemployed, and will probably have a hard time finding work for the rest of his life because of the reputation he has obtained.
If the consequences for a police officer following their training – crime happens, suspect does not comply to verbal commands, suspect needs to be stopped per training, in this case firearms were allowed – is that the officer’s life will be destroyed and also their family will suffer tremendously and ends up losing whole or half their income, what do you think happens next time when police has to uphold the law?
The police will choose to look the other way and let whatever is happening take place. This is very bad for society as a whole in the long term.
I seriously doubt that. If he is not convicted criminally, there is no way every future employer would know his name and tie him to the shooting. Unlike in the US names and faces of people charged with crime are not publicised and plastered all over the news.
Also if there is no criminal conviction, it is well possible, that he would get back into police work. Also judges tend to favorably set criminal convictions just so, that police officers do not lose their jobs based on being convicted of too serious of a crime.
So he has every mean to get back to his old life without further trouble, if he is not convicted. If he is convicted, well then he is a criminal and certainly not fit for duty.
And in no country that has due process, fair trial for a police officer would incentivise other police officers from “looking the other way”. That is just a boogeyman.
You really think that the full officer’s name won’t leak somehow?
I am almost certain the officer’s name will leak if it already hasn’t. There are plenty of people with political interest one way or the other to make it public. Or simply someone greedy enough for a scoop to build their journalistic reputation.
As for “look the other way”, once the police work and field decisions gets politicized enough, this can happen. And case Nahel is politicized to the max due to the scale of follow-up rioting. For example, I recommend to check what happened in Baltimore post-2015. The part from David Simon, a Baltimore police reporter, is interesting here: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/02/baltimore-murder-rate-homicides-ceasefire
How would violating journalistic principles help someone build a reputation?
If the name leaks, the leak can be subject to criminal liability and civil damages, hence no reputable and attackable source would publish it to general access.
Do you think more than maybe a tiny fraction of french employers would read obscure online forums, or be involved in organizations, where such a name might circulate? i find that highely improbable.
Your article shows that the problem is the “tough on crime” approach that led to deteriorating relationships between the people and the police. It further says those to be vital to be able to identify and arrest suspects of serious crime, which in turn leads to polices inability to police murder in Baltimore. That no police officer was convicted after the dead of Gray further eroded those relationships
So the article emphasises, what you seem to argue against. It is crucial for the police to be able to effectively take its role, that the police itself is properly policed and violations by police officers are met with consequences.
To get back to France, killing someone in a traffic stop certainly will not help to build relationships and trust between the community and police.
Some people seem to frame the shooting as justifiable to prevent the potential danger the kids reckless driving would pose to others. While I personally think this was a completely undefensible escalation of violence on the police’s end, I think there can be some reasonable discussion on what the appropriate level of force to stop the kid from speeding off would be. Sure, why not. Would I argue a person who is speeding away from the cops while shot is likelier to cause an accident involving others than one who isn’t shot? Also yes.
But having a crowdfunder for the individual that did the shooting, in practice rewarding someone for executing a kid for speeding without a license? What the actual fuck?
It’s not a reward for the perpetrator, it’s a preemptive Defense fund in case an example shall be made from him.
That’s what is written, but we both know the reason people are donating.
I think the danger of becoming a political scapegoat is very real, and when the government wants your head you need every bit of resources you can get.
Like the article says, the crowdfunder is for the family of the officer (as the officer is likely going to jail). French authorities would have immediately stopped a crowdfunder going directly to the officer, as that would be illegal per French law.
This is s tragedy all-in-all but what I would like to know: Nahel M. was 17, therefore driving illegally (no license), why was he doing this? Why didn’t he stop at the checkpoint? Why try to drive away? Was it a stolen car (it had Polish plates)?
Sadly, had Nahel M. stopped and done what the police say, I believe Nahel M. would still be alive. They would have certainly arrested and charged him (reckless driving, no license, possibly stolen car, and so on). Perhaps Nahel M. was afraid of being arrested like this, possibly a justified fear based on his experiences in the banlieue.
However, his attempt to drive away suggests he was aware of his actions being illegal and he wanted to avoid the consequences. Why would one do something illegal in the first place, if one wants to avoid consequences with the police?
I appreciate that you provide more info on what caused the death, but that’s not really what this post is about. If the officer did his job correctly, there’s no reason to crowdfund for him or his family. He did his job and he gets paid for it. If he used excessive force and goes to jail - why hand his family more money? As a reward for playing US sheriff? That crowfund seems just cynical, putting more hurt on the family of the deceased.
Yes, I agree, there is certainly the “screw you”-angle in the crowdfunder! Just look at who created it.
Regardless, there is another angle, perhaps unintentionally, and I think it is more important in the big picture:
The officer will likely never work as a policeman again, regardless if he goes to jail or not.
He likely ends up unemployed, and will probably have a hard time finding work for the rest of his life because of the reputation he has obtained.
If the consequences for a police officer following their training – crime happens, suspect does not comply to verbal commands, suspect needs to be stopped per training, in this case firearms were allowed – is that the officer’s life will be destroyed and also their family will suffer tremendously and ends up losing whole or half their income, what do you think happens next time when police has to uphold the law?
The police will choose to look the other way and let whatever is happening take place. This is very bad for society as a whole in the long term.
I seriously doubt that. If he is not convicted criminally, there is no way every future employer would know his name and tie him to the shooting. Unlike in the US names and faces of people charged with crime are not publicised and plastered all over the news.
Also if there is no criminal conviction, it is well possible, that he would get back into police work. Also judges tend to favorably set criminal convictions just so, that police officers do not lose their jobs based on being convicted of too serious of a crime.
So he has every mean to get back to his old life without further trouble, if he is not convicted. If he is convicted, well then he is a criminal and certainly not fit for duty.
And in no country that has due process, fair trial for a police officer would incentivise other police officers from “looking the other way”. That is just a boogeyman.
You really think that the full officer’s name won’t leak somehow?
I am almost certain the officer’s name will leak if it already hasn’t. There are plenty of people with political interest one way or the other to make it public. Or simply someone greedy enough for a scoop to build their journalistic reputation.
As for “look the other way”, once the police work and field decisions gets politicized enough, this can happen. And case Nahel is politicized to the max due to the scale of follow-up rioting. For example, I recommend to check what happened in Baltimore post-2015. The part from David Simon, a Baltimore police reporter, is interesting here: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/02/baltimore-murder-rate-homicides-ceasefire
How would violating journalistic principles help someone build a reputation?
If the name leaks, the leak can be subject to criminal liability and civil damages, hence no reputable and attackable source would publish it to general access.
Do you think more than maybe a tiny fraction of french employers would read obscure online forums, or be involved in organizations, where such a name might circulate? i find that highely improbable.
Your article shows that the problem is the “tough on crime” approach that led to deteriorating relationships between the people and the police. It further says those to be vital to be able to identify and arrest suspects of serious crime, which in turn leads to polices inability to police murder in Baltimore. That no police officer was convicted after the dead of Gray further eroded those relationships
So the article emphasises, what you seem to argue against. It is crucial for the police to be able to effectively take its role, that the police itself is properly policed and violations by police officers are met with consequences.
To get back to France, killing someone in a traffic stop certainly will not help to build relationships and trust between the community and police.