I am absolutely not challenging your definition or view of agender!
Is this because cisgender is identifying with your birth sex (being different to gender?) and transgender identifying with the opposite sex of birth. But agender dont identify with either?
I think sex and gender are considered different? I might have written this very poorly with use of wrong terminology
Agreed. Breadsmasher was polite–they acknowledged it could be a minefield of a question, explained what their fuzzy understanding was, and asked for clarification on what they got wrong, from someone who’d already shown a willingness to discuss the topic.
I didn’t take it as confrontational, rude, sea-lioning, or anything stressful.
No worries :)
It’s roughly that agender people don’t identify as either man or woman, but as neither. They might not even feel like they have “neutral” gender. It’s more “404: gender not found”, which doesn’t fit neatly into a binary gender system.
Sex and gender are different. Sex is biology, gender is cultural/social.
My doctor might need to know my plumbing, hormones, and chromosomes, but my coworkers don’t. Someone’s perceived sex at birth gives them their ‘default’ gender, but they might end up not being that gender when they’re able to voice their own feelings on the subject.
(caveat: I do not speak for all agender people, non-binary gender language evolves, it can be wibbly-wobbly fuzzy at times. Also, I do see myself under the Trans umbrella because ‘the more the merrier’ and there’s no need to fragment the non-cis community. Alternative definitions of “trans” can be broader, and include “anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned to them at birth”)
You could call somebody a slur then go “why are you getting worked up? It’s what you are, look at this definition in the book”. A person can say “I don’t want to be called that”, regardless of who they are. If you don’t respect it, you’re not being nice.
I feel like everyone has a right to self identify and label themselves how they wish, or choose to not be labeled at all. It’s fundamentally the same concept the trans/etc community has been pushing for for a very long time and it’s difficult to justify rejecting it just because we may not like the person making use of it at the moment.
Bro, I wrote 3 sentence that say no such thing and yet, you think that’s what I wrote. Read it again. Good grief.
A person can say “I don’t want to be called that”, regardless of who they are. If you don’t respect it, you’re not being nice.
Is that really that difficult to understand? If it is, maybe you need to go back to 6th grade and start over because your reading level wouldn’t even be that.
I don’t know their labels, but I do know they have expressed a preference to not be called ‘cis’. Respecting people should include respecting their requests not to be labeled with vocabulary they object to.
In case you missed that it’s Peterson or are just not aware of him, he’s a man that based an entire “career” in the spotlight on not respecting people’s requests to be labeled correctly at the cost of his actual career and sanity.
Ok, if this person has trouble respecting others, we don’t demonstrate basic respect for their human rights? Doesn’t that imply the thing we want everyone to do as a basic aspect of their humanity is optional if we can turn it off when inconvenient?
Not when that person is a bad faith actor. He’s not asking not to be called cisgender because it somehow relates to his identity but because he’s promoting a certain worldview. He is the first to say that words have immutable meaning and is educated enough to know what the cis and trans prefixes mean and how they are not exclusive to gender.
Respect is a two way street. It’s a contract between people. If someone threatens you, as in his tweet, he doesn’t get to have respect. If someone is “just asking questions” like you are… You don’t get to have respect.
Isn’t it strange that your questions seem to only go on one direction?
Why aren’t you asking questions of JP?
Why does he not want to be called cisgendered when that’s what he is?
Is it because removing the prefix “cis” makes it easier to alienate trans people?
Why are you suddenly obsessed with respecting other people’s “chosen” labels?
Do you think “cis” and “trans” are a choice?
Have you supported queer peoples labels in the past?
Why do you only take on the position of “let’s respect other people’s basic humanity” when defending heinous right wing grifters?
When have you defended the basic humanity of minorities in the past?
Why do you demand your one sided leading questions be answered in a meaningful way but there isn’t a chance in hell you’ll answer these ones meaningfully?
Why aren’t you pointing out that a grown ass man, brain damaged or otherwise, threatening strangers on the internet isn’t respectful behaviour?
Why do you think disrespectful behaviour should be met with respect?
Would you respect someone threatening to assault you?
Would you respect someone entering your home?
Why are you such a coward? when someone threatens you shouldn’t you defend yourself?
It’s so easy to look like you aren’t an absolutely garbage human being under the guise of “just asking questions”, but people are waking up to your bullshit right wing technique. In the words of innuendo studio
And because these folks keep showing up in each others’ metadata, regardless of what they say, Google thinks there is definitely a relationship between the guy “just asking questions” and the guy denying the Holocaust
What your saying means these are not basic human rights, if you can abandon them when you get angry. Your letting some online outrage personality bait you down to their level and wrestle in the mud.
You could have a preference for not being called slurs, as most people do, but “cis” isn’t a slur or a label, it’s a descriptor of if you are or are not transgendered (or agender).
Everything we know about Jordan B. Peterson clearly tells us he is not trans. Thus, he is cis-gendered.
If Jordan expressed a preference to not be called a human being, and then someone came to you and asked “what species is Jordan B. Peterson?” , would you try some euphemism for ‘human’ because “Jordan has expressed a preference to not be labeled human” ?
No, you wouldn’t. You’re just trying to strawman this bullshit so that “since trans people can choose their preferred pronouns, Jordan can choose if he wants to be labeled cis or not”, which is just not how anything works.
It’s like those Americans who get offended that the Spanish word for black is “negra/negro”.
It’s like those Americans who get offended that the Spanish word for black is “negra/negro”.
I don’t think we are going to find mutual understanding. I may disagree with people being sensitive of a word, but I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting - I need to respect everyone including how they identify themselves. I would not call Black Americans words they don’t like, and try to defend it by saying its normal in Spanish.
He doesn’t want to be called “not gay” because he doesn’t want gays to exist. He doesn’t want to normalize gays. It’s not about him, it’s about hating others under a thin veil.
If you “need to respect everyone” then why are you here defending JP who get far more respect than he deserves when you could be respecting and supporting the choices of minorities?
Seems like your vocal, active, respect is EXTREMELY selective! You seem to mostly fight for the respect of people who actively advocate to disrespect the weak and disenfranchised. How strange!
“I don’t think we’re going to find mutual understanding.”
Well clearly, since you’re being unreasonable.
“I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting.”
Okay, so just to let you know, I find the vowels “e” and “i” to be extremely offensive, so if you could refrain from using them while discussing with me so as not to trigger me, that’d be appreciated.
“Cis” isn’t a “label”. It’s as much a descriptor as “obese”. Some people are calling for that to be slur, but it’s not, it’s a medical term. Imagine you’re an instructor at a bungee-jumping place. You need to know the weight of the people jumping. If someone comes in and tells you they get offended if labeled by numerals, would you want to “respect” that and just avoid the issue of their weight and just pick a rope strength at random?
Especially because Elon definitely does identify as a cis-man. That’s just not up for question. “I would not call Black Americans words they don’t like”. So if someone asks you in spanish, what colour a black object is, you wouldn’t use the Spanish word for black? Then what would you call it?
You can’t defend a slur by pretending “no I wasn’t calling them the n-word, I was just using the spanish word for black” if you actually spoke English, because that’s an excuse, not them using Spanish.
Just like with Elon, he’s trying to utilise the “I can decide what people should call me” (and he can, he can literally do that), but if his gender-identity aligns with the sex he was born with, then he is cis (and he does identify as a man, and he was AMAB, so he is cis-gendered). Just like if a person has sexual attraction to their own sex, they are a homosexual. Ofc you “homo” has been used as an insult as well (although pretty much solely for homosexual men and not women), because gay people have historically been oppressed quite a lot. I’m sure Elon has noticed there’s a negative connotation sometimes with “cis” if it’s in the “cis white male” context where that is being used to generalise “the opposition” as if were (which is itself othering by anyone using that ‘tactic’). The point here being that cis men have not historically been oppressed. Anywhere, really. Ever. Ofc certain cis men have been, due to them being say of an ethnicity that’s been oppressed, but cis men haven’t been oppressed for being cis men, is the point.
And just like “homosexual” isn’t a slur in an of itself, “cis-gendered” isn’t either, and it’s even harder to use “cis” in an offensive context than it is the whole word “homosexual”. “You homo” would probably be used as an insult, but “you’re a homosexual” really doesn’t seem as offensive as it does descriptive.
It’s as much a descriptor as “obese”. Some people are calling for that to be slur, but it’s not, it’s a medical term.
You know what else were medical terms? Dumb. Cretin. Moron. Idiot. Retarded. Not saying “obese” is on that level yet, just that originating as a medical term doesn’t remove usage of that term from any criticism. If it’s consistently used as an insult rather than a neutral descriptor…it becomes an insult.
These words aren’t made up on the spot, they are one noun (gender) with a Latin qualifier prefix added that denotes something about the noun (cis).
You can’t “object” to being categorized based on your attributes; Cisgender is the same kind of word as heterosexual, which is just the word sexual with the prefix “hetero-” meaning different.
If you are a straight man, you can’t simply object to being called heterosexual as it is a term that describes you. The alternative is being something besides straight/hetero.
You can’t “object” to being categorized based on your attribute
While I’m with you for the most part, this is not really the case. To take an extreme example, “n****r” is literally just a categorisation based on skin tone, but I’m definitely not about to tell someone they can’t object to being called that because they really do have dark skin. Similarly, it might be accurate to call someone fat or lopsided or gangly, but in most contexts it’s pretty mean to do so and I don’t think they’d be out of place to ask you not to
Ordinary words can become slurs, mild or otherwise. “Cis” could. See the way that misogynists use “female”, a word which is still totally normal and fine to use in many contexts. I think the crucial difference is just that people don’t use “cis” that way.
I see what you’re trying to say, but this is a fundamentally different situation like you said: This particular word is specifically used in situations where its use is important for distinguishing groups. There are no alternatives when distinguishing is necessary because the options aren’t just “transgender” and “not transgender”, there are also agender and nonbinary.
The alternative is to say the full qualifier of “People who are the gender they were assigned at birth” or “People who are neither trans nor agender nor non binary…” - At which point you’re just defining the word cisgender.
With JP it’s honestly more akin to saying “Ok so there are people who live in California, people with homes in multiple states, and people who don’t live in California. Californians, kinda-californians, and non-Californians.”
And then someone who does not live in California pipes up with “don’t call me a non-Californian because California isn’t real”.
If somebody lives in Zimbabwe, and they don’t like being referred to in terms of California or not California. While you’re vocabulary is consistent, when you’re speaking to this person from Zimbabwe it would be polite to not label them as a non-californian to their face.
This non-western, non-white, non-Christian, non-Californian theoretical person might get annoyed by being defined by all the things they are not. Even though every term is technically correct.
To be clear in case I wasn’t before, I agree with you that “cis” is not a bad thing to call someone. I was disagreeing with the logic you supported the point with rather than the actual point itself. Peterson is 100% doing it because he’s a dickhead that wants to weaponise the language against trans people
In this particular case, it’s because JP is very much vocal about both of those things. He is a cisgender male who is only objecting to the suggestion of the existence of an alternative to being the gender you were assigned at birth.
Are we not respecting people’s self chosen labels now? I must have missed the memo
Have you chosen to be cis? Have you chosen to be trans?
Because there isnt any other option. If he isn’t cis, then he is trans.
cisgender /sĭs-jĕn′dər/ adjective 1. Identifying as having a gender that corresponds to the sex one has been assigned at birth; not transgender.transgender /trăns-jĕn′dər, trănz-/ adjective 1. Identifying as or having undergone medical treatment to become a member of the opposite sex.(Technically, there’s a secret third option: agender. Agender folks are not cis, but not necessarily trans, either. Source: am agender)
I am absolutely not challenging your definition or view of agender!
Is this because cisgender is identifying with your birth sex (being different to gender?) and transgender identifying with the opposite sex of birth. But agender dont identify with either?
I think sex and gender are considered different? I might have written this very poorly with use of wrong terminology
Y’all are not doing the snowflake memes any favour when you downvote someone for politely asking a question.
Agreed. Breadsmasher was polite–they acknowledged it could be a minefield of a question, explained what their fuzzy understanding was, and asked for clarification on what they got wrong, from someone who’d already shown a willingness to discuss the topic. I didn’t take it as confrontational, rude, sea-lioning, or anything stressful.
No worries :) It’s roughly that agender people don’t identify as either man or woman, but as neither. They might not even feel like they have “neutral” gender. It’s more “404: gender not found”, which doesn’t fit neatly into a binary gender system.
Sex and gender are different. Sex is biology, gender is cultural/social. My doctor might need to know my plumbing, hormones, and chromosomes, but my coworkers don’t. Someone’s perceived sex at birth gives them their ‘default’ gender, but they might end up not being that gender when they’re able to voice their own feelings on the subject.
(caveat: I do not speak for all agender people, non-binary gender language evolves, it can be wibbly-wobbly fuzzy at times. Also, I do see myself under the Trans umbrella because ‘the more the merrier’ and there’s no need to fragment the non-cis community. Alternative definitions of “trans” can be broader, and include “anyone who doesn’t identify with the gender assigned to them at birth”)
Edit: this instagram post sums it up nicely https://www.instagram.com/the_crafty_queer/p/CzqzG4oOf-8/?img_index=1
You could call somebody a slur then go “why are you getting worked up? It’s what you are, look at this definition in the book”. A person can say “I don’t want to be called that”, regardless of who they are. If you don’t respect it, you’re not being nice.
Simple as
… you think cisgender or transgender is a slur?
Ok. “call me a person to my face. see what happens”. If you’re not a person, what label do want?
Their point isn’t entirely invalid.
I feel like everyone has a right to self identify and label themselves how they wish, or choose to not be labeled at all. It’s fundamentally the same concept the trans/etc community has been pushing for for a very long time and it’s difficult to justify rejecting it just because we may not like the person making use of it at the moment.
I’ve certainly seen people attempt (and fail) to use cis as a slur online in an intentional way.
Bro, I wrote 3 sentence that say no such thing and yet, you think that’s what I wrote. Read it again. Good grief.
Is that really that difficult to understand? If it is, maybe you need to go back to 6th grade and start over because your reading level wouldn’t even be that.
Wow, could you misinterpret my response any further?
What is his chosen label beyond “not cis” because he hates trans people?
Making fun of people for them asking to have their labels respected seems inconsistent.
Again, what label?
I don’t know their labels, but I do know they have expressed a preference to not be called ‘cis’. Respecting people should include respecting their requests not to be labeled with vocabulary they object to.
In case you missed that it’s Peterson or are just not aware of him, he’s a man that based an entire “career” in the spotlight on not respecting people’s requests to be labeled correctly at the cost of his actual career and sanity.
Why are you engaging with this sea lion?
Ok, if this person has trouble respecting others, we don’t demonstrate basic respect for their human rights? Doesn’t that imply the thing we want everyone to do as a basic aspect of their humanity is optional if we can turn it off when inconvenient?
Not when that person is a bad faith actor. He’s not asking not to be called cisgender because it somehow relates to his identity but because he’s promoting a certain worldview. He is the first to say that words have immutable meaning and is educated enough to know what the cis and trans prefixes mean and how they are not exclusive to gender.
If we wont respect people’s labels / triggers then we can’t expect others to respect ours.
Respect is a two way street. It’s a contract between people. If someone threatens you, as in his tweet, he doesn’t get to have respect. If someone is “just asking questions” like you are… You don’t get to have respect.
It’s so easy to look like you aren’t an absolutely garbage human being under the guise of “just asking questions”, but people are waking up to your bullshit right wing technique. In the words of innuendo studio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g
What your saying means these are not basic human rights, if you can abandon them when you get angry. Your letting some online outrage personality bait you down to their level and wrestle in the mud.
You’re still not getting it.
You could have a preference for not being called slurs, as most people do, but “cis” isn’t a slur or a label, it’s a descriptor of if you are or are not transgendered (or agender).
Everything we know about Jordan B. Peterson clearly tells us he is not trans. Thus, he is cis-gendered.
If Jordan expressed a preference to not be called a human being, and then someone came to you and asked “what species is Jordan B. Peterson?” , would you try some euphemism for ‘human’ because “Jordan has expressed a preference to not be labeled human” ?
No, you wouldn’t. You’re just trying to strawman this bullshit so that “since trans people can choose their preferred pronouns, Jordan can choose if he wants to be labeled cis or not”, which is just not how anything works.
It’s like those Americans who get offended that the Spanish word for black is “negra/negro”.
I don’t think we are going to find mutual understanding. I may disagree with people being sensitive of a word, but I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting - I need to respect everyone including how they identify themselves. I would not call Black Americans words they don’t like, and try to defend it by saying its normal in Spanish.
He doesn’t want to be called “not gay” because he doesn’t want gays to exist. He doesn’t want to normalize gays. It’s not about him, it’s about hating others under a thin veil.
If you “need to respect everyone” then why are you here defending JP who get far more respect than he deserves when you could be respecting and supporting the choices of minorities?
Seems like your vocal, active, respect is EXTREMELY selective! You seem to mostly fight for the respect of people who actively advocate to disrespect the weak and disenfranchised. How strange!
“I don’t think we’re going to find mutual understanding.”
Well clearly, since you’re being unreasonable.
“I cannot call people things they find triggering/insulting.”
Okay, so just to let you know, I find the vowels “e” and “i” to be extremely offensive, so if you could refrain from using them while discussing with me so as not to trigger me, that’d be appreciated.
“Cis” isn’t a “label”. It’s as much a descriptor as “obese”. Some people are calling for that to be slur, but it’s not, it’s a medical term. Imagine you’re an instructor at a bungee-jumping place. You need to know the weight of the people jumping. If someone comes in and tells you they get offended if labeled by numerals, would you want to “respect” that and just avoid the issue of their weight and just pick a rope strength at random?
Especially because Elon definitely does identify as a cis-man. That’s just not up for question. “I would not call Black Americans words they don’t like”. So if someone asks you in spanish, what colour a black object is, you wouldn’t use the Spanish word for black? Then what would you call it?
You can’t defend a slur by pretending “no I wasn’t calling them the n-word, I was just using the spanish word for black” if you actually spoke English, because that’s an excuse, not them using Spanish.
Just like with Elon, he’s trying to utilise the “I can decide what people should call me” (and he can, he can literally do that), but if his gender-identity aligns with the sex he was born with, then he is cis (and he does identify as a man, and he was AMAB, so he is cis-gendered). Just like if a person has sexual attraction to their own sex, they are a homosexual. Ofc you “homo” has been used as an insult as well (although pretty much solely for homosexual men and not women), because gay people have historically been oppressed quite a lot. I’m sure Elon has noticed there’s a negative connotation sometimes with “cis” if it’s in the “cis white male” context where that is being used to generalise “the opposition” as if were (which is itself othering by anyone using that ‘tactic’). The point here being that cis men have not historically been oppressed. Anywhere, really. Ever. Ofc certain cis men have been, due to them being say of an ethnicity that’s been oppressed, but cis men haven’t been oppressed for being cis men, is the point.
And just like “homosexual” isn’t a slur in an of itself, “cis-gendered” isn’t either, and it’s even harder to use “cis” in an offensive context than it is the whole word “homosexual”. “You homo” would probably be used as an insult, but “you’re a homosexual” really doesn’t seem as offensive as it does descriptive.
You know what else were medical terms? Dumb. Cretin. Moron. Idiot. Retarded. Not saying “obese” is on that level yet, just that originating as a medical term doesn’t remove usage of that term from any criticism. If it’s consistently used as an insult rather than a neutral descriptor…it becomes an insult.
These words aren’t made up on the spot, they are one noun (gender) with a Latin qualifier prefix added that denotes something about the noun (cis).
You can’t “object” to being categorized based on your attributes; Cisgender is the same kind of word as heterosexual, which is just the word sexual with the prefix “hetero-” meaning different.
If you are a straight man, you can’t simply object to being called heterosexual as it is a term that describes you. The alternative is being something besides straight/hetero.
While I’m with you for the most part, this is not really the case. To take an extreme example, “n****r” is literally just a categorisation based on skin tone, but I’m definitely not about to tell someone they can’t object to being called that because they really do have dark skin. Similarly, it might be accurate to call someone fat or lopsided or gangly, but in most contexts it’s pretty mean to do so and I don’t think they’d be out of place to ask you not to
Ordinary words can become slurs, mild or otherwise. “Cis” could. See the way that misogynists use “female”, a word which is still totally normal and fine to use in many contexts. I think the crucial difference is just that people don’t use “cis” that way.
I see what you’re trying to say, but this is a fundamentally different situation like you said: This particular word is specifically used in situations where its use is important for distinguishing groups. There are no alternatives when distinguishing is necessary because the options aren’t just “transgender” and “not transgender”, there are also agender and nonbinary.
The alternative is to say the full qualifier of “People who are the gender they were assigned at birth” or “People who are neither trans nor agender nor non binary…” - At which point you’re just defining the word cisgender.
With JP it’s honestly more akin to saying “Ok so there are people who live in California, people with homes in multiple states, and people who don’t live in California. Californians, kinda-californians, and non-Californians.”
And then someone who does not live in California pipes up with “don’t call me a non-Californian because California isn’t real”.
If somebody lives in Zimbabwe, and they don’t like being referred to in terms of California or not California. While you’re vocabulary is consistent, when you’re speaking to this person from Zimbabwe it would be polite to not label them as a non-californian to their face.
This non-western, non-white, non-Christian, non-Californian theoretical person might get annoyed by being defined by all the things they are not. Even though every term is technically correct.
To be clear in case I wasn’t before, I agree with you that “cis” is not a bad thing to call someone. I was disagreeing with the logic you supported the point with rather than the actual point itself. Peterson is 100% doing it because he’s a dickhead that wants to weaponise the language against trans people
Why is it my business what is in their pants, and how they gender themselves?
In this particular case, it’s because JP is very much vocal about both of those things. He is a cisgender male who is only objecting to the suggestion of the existence of an alternative to being the gender you were assigned at birth.
It’s clear from this conversation, and tweet above, the only reason to label this person as cis is to trigger them.
That is no way to treat another human being.
Threatening violence is not the appropriate way to express a “preference.”
100% agreed. The original twitter poster is a outrage merchant.