You guys are like mid 20s you’re not youths. You’re old news now.

Millions of addicts can’t be wrong!

yeah fair actually

Which definition of fascism are you applying?

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Well her three kids are all great! Her first pregnancy went complication free, twins needed a c section because umbilical tangles. All healthy as, super sweet, and the eldest is extremely articulate and agreeable for a 2 year old. I don’t usually like kids under 5ish but I’ll hang out with them any day, very low stress relatively!

She did find some people were judgey, but surpringly not the healthcare people. They mostly seemed happy at her not being an antivax weirdo and keeping active!

Best of luck!

Idk what stage you’re at. I showed my sister your post and she said this:

I have no literature to share (didn’t really look and didn’t stumble across anything). Only:

Prenatal vitamins: vitamin intake super important now, especially Omega-3, iron, choline. Naturelo vegan prenatal vitamin was my pregnancy multivitamin of choice

Also, it’s hard to keep iron up. In twin pregnancy I was taking the max dose of iron, but taking it every two days as there’s some evidence that your body produces something (heparin?) in response to iron intake so actually skipping every second day (not doubling the dose either; literally just skipping a day) results in higher uptake. The max recommended dose is 200mg elemental iron. This meant one ferro-grad C, a couple of the bioceuticala iron, and a handful of other iron tablets - with a variety of forms of iron (ferrous bisglycinate, ferrous fumarate, etc)

And I took vegan choline and Omega-3 separately as well

It’s very possible to have a perfectly healthy vegan pregnancy. Hey, I carried twins to 40 weeks!

brain dead take.

Always a racist slave state? sure. A military cult since like 1910? sure. A broken oligarchy? sure.

Fascist? defs heading that way. Not always.

I postulate that there comes a point where language is required to achieve a higher state of emotion.

Right, just so we’re clear you’re making shit up and clothing it in the language of science.

I am not banning you yet because I’m not sure you quite understand what you just implied but it’s hard not to read this as a claim that humans with different capacities for language don’t reach your enlightened heights of emotional complexity.

That is a very dangerous attitude which has been used to justify absolutely horrendous stuff.

Do you uh, wanna backpedal from that claim?

This is a pretty strange stance to argue. As far as I can see you’re saying:

1. we can’t know another animal’s emotional state
2. some humans rarely have abnormalities in how they feel emotions
3. from 1 and 2 it is possible that emotional capacity is not universal in animals
4. from 3 it is unlikely non human animals are comparable to human animals in emotional capacity

I just don’t see how you get from 3 to 4. It would seem to me given how similar humans are to at least other mammals, specifically in the neural structures we believe to be where emotions arise and in the behaviours we believe to be emotionally driven, we should strongly suspect they have emotions highly comparable to us and not the reverse.

Why would the default assumption be they don’t?

I’m bored of this. I thought you had interesting opinions, sorry for my mistake.

Depression, anxiety, dementia and chronic liver disease are emerging as some of the fastest-growing chronic conditions.

Woooh yeah deaths of despair baby!

Society is going strooooong

All we’ve done is massively increase inequality, poisoned the world, taken an axe to social services, and let everyone get infected with a virus that causes cumulative brain and heart damage. Who could have predicted this?

I’m shocked, shocked and appalled I tell you.

I miss thinking the future was gonna get better but neoliberalism had entrenched itself so firmly in politics/APS/economics most people don’t even realise it’s an ideology and not fact, most of the contamination (plastics, pfas, agrichems) are long lived and we’re also dependant on them, and climate change is about to get mega spicy if the models are correct and Indonesian, Indian, and islander people are gonna be (rightly) demanding some of this continent’s habitable land.

interesting times ahead for us!

it’s not an analogy it’s a thought experiment. I am trying to understand the shape of your ideas.

So the ability to feel pain is harmed by cybernetics? division from a whole (still no idea what you mean specifically there in the absence of localised organs)? and if you’re going to die in about an hour?

We appear to be imagining different scenarios. Imagine it is freshly amputated and is still alive, or that we amputate it and hook it up to an artificial circulatory system, or indeed my circulatory system but at a distance so nothing else is connected (curious if you think the pain chance changes in that situation).

I’m sorry, I could have been more explicit. It seemed obvious to me discussing a dead hand was silly but being the internet it’s worth clarifying these things.

wait what? that’s an extremely unusual stance!

What do you mean separated from the whole? all the non hand parts of me are also no longer whole but I am willing to believe amputees, even multiple amputees, even people who have lost the majority of their body can feel pain if their brain is alive and mostly intact.

This is consistent with my belief that pain experiencing happens in a centralised mass of nervous tissue we call a brain.

If you don’t think centralised masses of nervous tissue are needed to experience pain (required for plants to, given that no brain is something we can prove) what do you think is? Why would a patch of grass have that thing but not a blade of grass (grass lacks localised organs afterall) or my hand?

Ok, and I opened by acknowledging the hard problem of consciousness but you never actually said that you disagreed with my assertion that my amputated hand doesn’t feel pain.

Do you think my amputated hand feels pain? It would seem that you would have just as much (more maybe! given electric shocks or heat to the fingertips will make it recoil) evidence for it feeling pain as grass. And that all your arguments about grass signalling also apply to my amputated hand.

If you don’t think my amputated hand feels pain (or could be considered at least as likely as grass to) why don’t you?

Also we need to distinguish responding to the environment and even making decisions from experiencing pain.

I can make a robot from Lego that follows a line pretty well but I think we’re all pretty comfortable with the idea it is vanishingly unlikely to feel pain (although there are people who feel punishment machine learning schemes are unethical lol).

No I’m not, I’m asking why you specifically believe those things to be comparable.

What specific knowledge do you have which prompts these apparently very deeply held and unusual beliefs?

Damaged plants can send out signals to other plants, and chemicals to repel what is damaging them (to the specific area where the damage is being done) and repair their damage.

Could you please explain how this can be distinguished from wound healing in a human. Like what chemicals are sent out? what is the mechanism? are they transported anywhere in particular? are different signals collated in determining a response or does the same hormone guarantee the same response in a dose dependent manner?

Some plants will avoid growing towards areas that they have been unable to thrive in before.

This is surprising to me, is it distinct from following chemical gradients? I have never seen this, or heard about it. The closest I would say I have ever seen is not growing towards salt or dry soil. What is the evidence here please as I don’t know what you’re talking about. Is there a memory effect? if a grass doesn’t grow south and you put it in a new area will it also not grow south?

You still seem to be talking about things from a purely human perspective. Dogs will damage their feet and not even let you know sometimes.

I’m really not, I had a whole thing about memory and will to live and avoiding areas where I specifically spoke about rats.

Whether or not you notice it (and it’s true that many animals will try to hide injuries, humans included) doesn’t mean there is no modifications to behaviour. E.g. licking, protecting the area (less weight on paw, lifiting it up etc), reacting to the same stimulus more negatively such as not eating or growling etc when being touched.

You literally said she stopped using it. Aka she felt pain. Ever eaten after a dentist when your mouth is still numb? you will straight up bite off chunks of your lips and keep eating. If there was no pain she would keep trying to use it and probably just be confused when it didn’t work. Which btw is how she’ll behave if you anaesthetise her!

Also if you’ve ever noticed her behaviour after removing say a piece of gravel from between the pads in her feet you’ll probably notice despite no damage the first step or two will be tentative. She’s anticipating pain, again behaviour modification.

Plants just don’t do anything like this.

It does though, you will stop walking. Clutch your foot, say ow, look at where you hit the thing, be more careful when walking near there, move the object, pad the object, maybe wear protective covers on your feet, maybe dress a wound if the nailbed was damaged etc. If your toe keeps hurting you will travel to a doctor for assessment, or splint the toe and so on.

Unless you don’t notice, in which case you feel no pain despite the toe signalling furiously.

Along side this a bunch of cellular processes will happen to repair the damage, but they happen even if you don’t notice (distraction/nerve damage, anaesthetic etc) and so we can notice “huh, there are 2 clusters of things happening, one is conditional and one isn’t” and that’s a clue that there’s something more going on than just a body repairing itself.