• PugJesus@lemmy.worldEnglish
    854·
    11 days ago

    “Italians do it better” is an intentional double entendre, so I feel moving to a more sexual commentary is not wholly out of the ballpark of reasonableness.

    Fuck “Is this your first day on the internet” response, though, and the other two weird comments.

    We really 95% male here, though? I thought it was more like 70-30.

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      2231·
      11 days ago

      Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s an obvious Madonna reference.

      Wearing Madonna’s clothes is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification. Really, wearing any clothes should never be considered a sexual invitation without further context or permission.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldEnglish
        681·
        11 days ago

        Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s not a double entendre, it’s an obvious Madonna reference.

        … is it not a double-entendre when she wore it in that video? I’ve only ever heard it (and adaptations) used in the context of a double-entendre, and the song’s lyrics and visuals don’t seem to contradict any such interpretation. I mean, it’s literally used in the scene where the boy who presumably impregnates the girl of the lyrics/video/Madonna’s depiction first catches her eyes in a clear depiction of a sexually charged first meeting/attraction/whatever.

        Wearing Madonna’s clothes, especially clothes that reference a pretty serious non-sexual video, is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification.

        I mean, commenting on a rando’s selfie that’s not posted by said rando is so devoid of context that I often have trouble discerning what is and is not appropriate (regarding the behavior of the commenters, not myself - I generally don’t have the urge to comment on said photos), so it’s more of a general observation, but, absent all that, “Woman wearing a shirt with a sexualized message gets a sexualized joke directly related to the content of that message” does not seem, on a first reading, absurd, other than in general crassness that can be applied to sexualized jokes about people in any circumstance.

        If she was uncomfortable with it, it would be unambiguously wrong instead of just lacking in context that would make it appropriate (ie an offense rather than a mistake). But, as I said - unless a rando’s selfie is uploaded by said rando, there’s no context, so my observation of whether the comment is appropriate is in a vacuum, and may not fit the context of the conversation or atmosphere of the comment thread.

        (edited for clarifications)

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
          1434·
          11 days ago

          Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.

          (To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video. But if some in-universe character sexualized Madonna’s character in the video simply over the shirt it would still he inappropriate. Fans wear merch all the time, people wear revealing clothes all the time, and none of that gives an OK to sexualization.)

          • Pup Biru@aussie.zoneEnglish
            462·
            11 days ago

            if someone wears a shirt specifically designed to draw attention to their larger than average breasts, perhaps people should not be surprised when people… yknow… pay attention to said breasts?

            with that being said, the actual content of the comments, pretty gross and degrading… but the fact that the comments are about breasts should not be surprising in the slightest

            • panic@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              193·
              11 days ago

              I’d like to point out that MOST SHIRTS with text on them have it over where the boobs would be, regardless of what that texts says

            • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
              2521·
              11 days ago

              paying attention ✅ good, fine, cutesey, demure, inside thoughts… but not what im talking about :)

              making comments ❌ bad, objectification, gross and mean. this is what im talking about and we seem to agree. keep these thoughts inside unless given permission.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldEnglish
            24·
            11 days ago

            Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.

            Sure, which is why context is important, and why rando selfies uploaded by someone other than the rando are difficult to place in context and pretty inherently uncomfortable to me. Sexual jokes about other people are also generally uncomfortable to me, but I also recognize that it’s a form of humor that is not inherently illegitimate.

            My point here is only that “On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field. There is a clear chain of thought that is not inherently absurd, not just “The first thing thought of when they saw a woman is ‘comment on her breasts for no reason’”. Your view is that he misread the context - that the context is NOT sexual and humorous, his view is that the context was sexual and humorous to begin with; mine is that these contextless selfies who aren’t posted by the, uh, self, lend themselves to this kind of clash.

            (To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video but this isn’t the video. Fans wear merch all the time, and merch that has suggestive content still doesn’t give an OK to sexualization.)

            I know this is secondary to the main point, but I can’t held but return to it - if it’s a double entendre in the video and a double entendre in common usage, how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?

            • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
              1512·
              11 days ago

              “On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field.

              Okay agree. Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.

              …how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?

              It is, I just phrased it weird. Let me go edit it.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.worldEnglish
                121·
                11 days ago

                Okay agree.

                Cool, we’re in agreement. 🙏

                It’s not appropriate (as the context of the selfie originator is unavailable, and absent that context or other signifiers, any selfie should be assumed to be non-sexual), but it is dependent on an assumption of or misreading of context (presumably in good faith) rather than a sheer bloody-minded determination to give a passing woman the metaphorical wolf-whistle.

                Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.

                I mean, it’s more than a technicality considering your response was to accuse him of having his first thought upon seeing a woman to comment on her breasts unprovoked. “This your first time on the internet?” implying that such comments are inherently acceptable is a dick response from him, so fuck him, but a defensive response of some sort was going to be inevitable given the (ha) context.

                If I mess up cleaning a pan because I rarely use pans (tinfoil brigade reporting), messing up cleaning the pan is not made okay by the fact that I do it rarely (I should have been prepared, I should have been more attentive, etc), but if someone accuses me of having left the pan dirty on purpose, I will absolutely respond with vitriol, when otherwise I would have inquired as to what I did wrong or been apologetic (not to imply that that’s the average response from someone objectifying someone else inappropriately, simply pointing out that IF they’re reachable, they then become less reachable by that human reaction). Because then it’s been transformed from a mistake to a deliberate offense.

                • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
                  64·
                  11 days ago

                  Completely off topic but it’s funny to me that when we have a cordial disagreement I get pummeled with downvotes—even if we come to an understanding in the end.

                  The power you wield, PugJesus. Use it responsibly.

                • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
                  46·
                  11 days ago

                  yeah exactly. i dont really know why i censored my name but im the one who made the “its not intrinsically evil” comment, i want to give people the chance to see that what they did was weird rather than coming down hard right away.

                  also if you want the original video: here haha. fair warning the video is nonsensical and verging on word salad.

  • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
    605·
    11 days ago

    Those are yucky comments anywhere other than an lemmynsfw community or a community with a suggestive name. I can’t glean much context from this screenshot of the post but in general, I believe horniness should be kept to horny online places.

    We can and should do much better than that.

  • Th4tGuyII@fedia.io
    535·
    11 days ago

    Related to the previous posts bit, but I remember first seeing the Man vs. Bear memes.

    I’ll admit it was hard not to take it personally at first, because even if you agreed with the core of the message, it feels like you’re being lumped in with the worst of menkind for no good reason. That’s probably why the reaction was so toxic, because people just replied with their gut reaction, which was to take offence…

    But upon giving it a bit of thought, I realised that as a guy who’s lived in some dodgy areas, I think I too would oftentimes prefer to take my chances with a bear than alone with a stranger at night - not cause I think I’d beat the bear, but at least you know what the bear’s probably gonna do…

    And if I feel that way being a man, then considering (on average) women are weaker than men of the same build, I can see why women would feel that way too.

    • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzEnglish
      337·
      11 days ago

      Indian metal band Bloodywood has the best take on the “all men” issue:

      Not all men?
      Yes all men!
      Need all men for what we’re solving
      Can’t be what it’s been but we’re evolving

      The patriarchy privileges every man, which means every man needs to fight the system. If every man who hears the message and isn’t an abuser stands up and does something, we can end the patriarchy. It’s not “every man is guilty”, it’s “every man is responsible, and we can end it together.”

      And the rest of the song is about punching rapists.

      • TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world
        121·
        11 days ago

        I agree with this and I have absolutely no desire to undermine the problems that women face. However I think it is also important to understand how many men also feel oppressed by the patriarchy as well. Obviously women have been and continue to be oppressed to a far greater and much more literal degree, but so many men feel this immense pressure to “be a man.” This frustration at feeling inadequate because of these immense pressures is what makes so many men as dangerous and unpredictable as they are. I really think this is a major part of the issue, we need more men to stand up and realize that they don’t have to conform to some shitty societal idea of what masculinity should be, same as how women have been fighting against their own traditional gender roles. Any man who can feel secure in being himself regardless of society’s expectations should help the men in his life to understand the same. Maybe then we’d have less insecure, dangerous men running around.

        • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nzEnglish
          113·
          11 days ago

          Oh yeah Bloodywood get that. They’re an all male band. They also have songs about struggling with suicide and living your own truth

          (In Hindi:)
          I am not voiceless, I am endurant
          I m not a stray rock, I am the founding stone of a mountain
          I am not weak, I am forgiving
          Within darkness, I am my own light

          They are the most positive male role models you can imagine, openly talking about personal struggle and about the things they told themself to overcome those struggles.

          And they also think the working class should rise up and redistribute wealth. They’ve used the proceeds from their tours to help homeless animals and pay for counselling for young people. They say if the conditions faced by the poorest in society don’t change, the owning class should expect a riot. “No flag on my bulletproof vest”.

        • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works
          3·
          11 days ago

          I know you probably didn’t mean it like this, but I’m one of those people who “realized” I didn’t need to conform to being traditionally masculine, and this is definitely not something the average person can or should do. If you don’t try your best at “being a man,” When you’re younger other men will bully you, most women will either think there’s something wrong with you or not want to talk to you, and your parents will wonder what they’re doing wrong. Even people with super accepting parents end up feeling weirded out by “non manly” people because it’s not the norm. When you get older a lot of these issues get easier because you can choose who you associate with, but I still get people either commenting or treating me worse because I’m not “manly” enough, almost never the opposite.

          I have no idea what to do about this, I’m just saying living as a not traditionally “manly” will have the general population treating you worse for your whole life, and you’re either strong enough to deal with that and stick with only the people who don’t care about it, or you go back to being “manly”

          • TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world
            3·
            11 days ago

            This is actually literally exactly what I’m talking about. We need more people to realize that not conforming to gender roles, masculine or feminine, does not make you a worse person. How many terrible men do you think wanted to express themselves their way but had that individuality beaten out of them? What do you think that does to a person? I am certain there is a good portion of men who learned very early on to hate men who do not behave as men should, and therefore hate themselves for not conforming to this ideal. I’m sure these men have lashed out in terrible ways which only goes to feed the justified fear people have of this culture of masculinity and the people it creates. Everyone in this is a victim, even if they don’t know it.

    • Lumelore (She/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      171·
      11 days ago

      it feels like you are being lumped in with the worst of menkind for no good reason.

      Before I realized I was trans I also got super upset at being lumped in with bad men (although with an additional different reason that I didn’t understand at the time), and that feeling is absolutely terrible, because you’re basically getting shit on just for existing.

      From my perspective as a woman it seems like there are a lot of shitty dudes out there. After I realizing I’m trans it became a lot easier to notice misogyny since it now affects me. I did notice before, but when something affects you specifically you notice it a lot more. I also didn’t fully understand how weak women are compared to men until I started taking estrogen. Just being near a man I don’t know well or at all is very scary because of how easily he could overpower me.

      If I am getting a random bear vs a random man I would definitely take the bear just because I feel like the risk of getting a bad man is too high. If I could pick a specific man, I definitely would pick my father or a friend because I know they are good men and I feel safe around them.

      I think some outrage could have been avoided if the question was worded just a bit better, although I think part of why it got so popular is because of the outrage it caused.

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      143·
      11 days ago

      hell yeah dude. it’s an uncomfortable conclusion to draw, but it’s an uncomfortable reality we live in.

  • Wutchilli
    392·
    11 days ago

    Love getting the wakeup call that just because something is part of the fediverse it is not inherently good or perfekt and still needs work (in regards of the humans that join)

  • kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    233·
    11 days ago

    I feel like it depends on the instance, .world is mostly male liberals (who will occasionally act sexist) while Blahaj.zone is mostly Transfem :3

    (Btw I wouldnt tolerate any of those comments on c/Trans)

    • Ziglin@lemmy.worldEnglish
      5·
      11 days ago

      I did not know that. Where are these demographics from? (More male users doesn’t really surprise me, that seems to be common in the places I’m interested in)

    • 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.caEnglish
      4·
      10 days ago

      i seriously think i have to revisit who im attracted to because cis-women sometimes just don’t vibe with my lifestyle anymore. I’ve been online for too long and its changed my personality. I have had relationships with women who would find these comments funny and acceptable, and i would kinda go “eugh” at them and second guess my feelings.

  • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
    236·
    11 days ago

    i miss [bigotry showcase] it made me feel like i was on the sane part of the internet

    • StarlightDust@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      21·
      10 days ago

      Reminds me of the days of circlebroke and srs. It was always nice realizing that I wasn’t alone in thinking the comments of a post on my frontpage were rancid.

      I’d offer to maintain something similar myself but I know myself well enough that it would slip my mind after a few weeks.

  • lseif@sopuli.xyz
    16·
    10 days ago

    thats what happens when you build a community with a large percentage of shut-in nerds and software devs (speaking as one of the latter)

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      9·
      10 days ago

      yeah, i try to think of it as an opportunity. i usually try to focus my efforts on encouraging growth and recognizing the hurt thats caused.

    • MBM@lemmings.world
      6·
      10 days ago

      This is essentially why I’d like more “normies” here
      (or option 2: maybe I should just avoid online spaces with the (sexist/weird) kind of people I avoid IRL)

      • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
        212·
        11 days ago

        .world users suck compared to blahaj.zone. With .ml, you get tankies, but with .world, you get more transphobes and lib normies. I spend all my time here, getting shocked by what’s normalized when I visit other instances. The people here can be horny, but are much more likely to respect boundaries if told.

  • 2ugly2live@lemmy.world
    11·
    10 days ago

    I love all these comments like this woman is asking, cares, or is even interested. “I totally probably would.” Okay, but would she??? Why do they think this woman wants to be someone’s last call when she could be someone’s first choice? If I looked at a picture of a regular guy and my fat ass was like, “Hmm, I mean, if I was drunk, and I had no options, I guess I’d take him home” I’d be dragged, and rightfully so. 😂

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      10·
      10 days ago

      the guy who made that comment is in this post right now saying “you don’t know the women or NBs i associate with [or if i make them uncomfortable]”

      meanwhile in this post are several women and NBs saying “yeah that made me uncomfortable” 😭 listening to women is hard for misogynistic actors i guess.

      fortunately the mods over at !lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world are doing their job to wack this guy.