If men could get pregnant, there would be drive-through abortion clinics every 5 miles
But statistically 50% of the aborted fetuses will be male! Checkmate!
68% of people believe in made-up numbers, 71% even if they sound random enough.
Seems like a classic case of if I can’t have one you can’t either.
Where did she get that number? Where’s the source?
Majorities of both men (61%) and women (64%) express support for legal abortion.
38% of men are against abortion, and 33% of women are against.
The numbers are pretty similar.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/
Ok, my first thought was “no way” but different areas of the country are different, so I was open to digging in. Looks like my gut was right, it’s just more “alternative facts.”
Thanks, the story she was telling was counter-intuitive and without source. Hence, doubt!
Those are different numbers, percentage of men who are against abortion and percentage of people against abortion who are men are not the same.
Doesn’t matter. If you take those numbers, let’s say 4 out of 10 men are against abortion, so you put them in a pile.
Then you take 3 out of 10 women against abortion and you put them in the same pile.
So now you have a pile with 4 men and 3 women who are against abortion. Which would mean 4/7 people who are against abortion are men. Which is 57%. Not 79% at all.
Either way. What’s the source. Should always source your statistics.
82% of statistics are made up on the spot. Everyone knows that.
69% of the time, it works every time
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Before Roe v. Wade were overturned I was critical about abortion, then we started hearing about all the trouble women go through and it shows how essential abortion is for reducing birth complications, even if it sounds illogical.
My main issue were when abortion was used as contraceptive, because at the time of abortion the body is increasing hormone production and then it’s tough on the woman emotionally when the fetus is removed, but then I learn that in those states sex-ed is very limited and contraceptives can be hard to get hold of. And without sex-ed and contraceptives abortion is the only option left.
In light of all that I now know why we need abortion and feel like a fool for opposing it.
I also applause your willingness to change your mind based on new facts learned and please don’t take this as an attack because it isn’t, it’s just a curiosity of mine. Did body autonomy not factor into your previous stance? I’m sure we both agree woman are perfectly capable of making their own decisions with their own body, why does anyone need to be involved in what they choose to do.
Tangentially related but I saw a state in the US basically made it so rapists could choose the mother of their children by both having abortion be illegal and making it so rapists could share parental rights with their victim. Essentially forcing the mother to be involved with their abuser. Shits crazy yo.
Regarding bodily autonomy, my previous stance were something like this: Abortion is a major decision and women should be counselled to make sure they know what they go into, and maybe try and convince them to keep it.
And that stance is probably fine if we lived in a perfect world where a few women got pregnant by accident, and it were the only reason for abortion.
But live in a world with: rapists, incest, teen pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy, failing contraceptics, and many other reasons for abortion.
So I can only agree that the only way forward is full bodily autonomy.
That’s a fair enough stance even if I don’t fully agree with it. I definitely agree with the counseling so people can make the decision that’s best for them but I don’t believe anyone should try and convince them one way or the other.
Thanks for giving me some of your time bud. Hope you have a good rest of your week.
because at the time of abortion the body is increasing hormone production and then it’s tough on the woman emotionally when the fetus is removed
I applaud you changing your mind in face of new information, I just kind of want to nitpick that being forced to carry a pregnancy that you don’t want to term is also going to be extremely physically and emotionally tough.
As a relative to a parent, who’s grandparents didn’t even want them but had to give birth to my parents, due to society stigma at the time, it honestly genuinely not worth it, esp with the amount of trauma my parent (dad) had to endure, due to not being loved and cared for, which has lead to further trauma extended to me too, due to unresolved pain. Abortion is a necessity. It saves lives alongside, helping people not suffer from further trauma and pain for the future for themselves and kids as well.
I’m curious, is there ANY evidence of ‘abortion as contraceptive’ happening?
Well, sort of. In that in states that teach abstinence-only sexual education, there is a higher rate of teen pregnancy. I’m guessing you could extrapolate from that and find that teen abortion rates are higher, but I don’t have that data.
As I like to say to “pro-life” people: “Want to reduce abortion? Make contraception free and teach comprehensive sexual education.”
That’s the thing though. They aren’t pro life. They are anti sex that they don’t approve of.
Pregnancy is punishment for you having sex outside of marriage.
Which…tells you exactly what they think of women.
That’s the thing though. They aren’t pro life. They are anti sex that they don’t approve of.
Sure, but they don’t think of themselves that way. They see themselves as trying to stop what they see as murder. Yes, they ALSO don’t want people having sex that they don’t approve of, but data clearly shows higher rates of unplanned pregnancy in states that don’t teach people how not to get pregnant. So if they truly see abortion as horrendous, they should be trying to stop unplanned pregnancies before they occur.
Pointing out that dissonance can help them see the flaw in their reasoning, if they’re introspective enough to attempt consistency in their views.
(Source: My own life story, having grown up as the sufficiently introspective “pro-lifer” shown the flaws in my thinking as part of a long journey from a conservative youth to a progressive adult. 😅)
I suspect it is one of those things that conservatives imagine being all over the place because in their communities where they would be shamed for becoming pregnant while unmarried and where contraceptives are hard to get that is how they imagine they would handle it.
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
My main issue were when abortion was used as contraceptive
What does this even mean? That’s literally all abortions?
From what I gather contraceptives ensures that the egg is not fertilized or not produced.
Whereas abortions is done after implantation.
Good point, in which case no abortion could ever be conctraceptive
Though abortion isn’t about men vs. women… It’s more like everyone against some religuous bigots.
It’s not about religion at the highest levels of government. It’s about controlling women and birth rates, and yes, privileging men by returning them to the “head of the household”
Imagine being such a big strong man that you need that title to make it through your day.
Typical behaviour to compensate for a small wee-wee. And personality issues.
It is far, far from only religious bigots who oppose abortion.
Is it? I mean I probably live in a different culture than most of the people here. I don’t know that many people in real life who are opposed in the way I read from the news from overseas (or our more catholic neighbors). And what I’ve read that science has a differentiated stance on it. It’s okay up to a certain point and consequences need to be factored in and weighed… What else are reasons to be strictly anti-abortion?
I dont know how big it is relative to the religious side, but there are groups who oppose abortion access because “men should be able to decide too”, and ‘none’ is a compromise they are fine with.
There are others who think it violates the freedoms of the fetus.
I’m sure there is some religious crossover with those groups too though, but maybe not as blatant.
I suppose there are men who want an abortion, too. Right? I mean if some accident happened with the contraception and you find out a few weeks later when your partner misses their period. Or you have second thoughts. Or you need to finish your education before spending the next 15 years raising a kid and supporting a family right now… I believe there are quite some reasons for the man-side of things, to have an opinion?! I don’t think going nuclear on the options is a valid compromise for anyone?
Oh sure, but those obviously aren’t in the anti-camp.
Its a compromise for some, not all. Which is why I also say there is probably some religious involvement there as well, just not how they are pushing the propaganda.
Hmm, I still don’t understand. I mean if men want to be able to decide, too… being anti and wanting a law that strictly prohibits it for everyone, also strips them from the ability to make a decision. And additionally it’s not a compromise. Forcing someone to something regardless, e.g. bearing a child is one of the extremes, not some middle-ground in between… You’d need a proper reason to force people to do something. And that can’t be I want to decide over someone else’s life. So either it’s religuous or backed with some reasoning that’s more than an opinion, or just for the sake of it.
being anti and wanting a law that strictly prohibits it for everyone, also strips them from the ability to make a decision
Ah, here is your first issue - you expect rational thought. It isn’t, they aren’t.
Forcing someone to something regardless, e.g. bearing a child is one of the extremes, not some middle-ground in between…
The woman’s life, opinions, etc, dont matter to them. Its a middle ground for these men, nothing else. I’d also say I’d assume for them its more about controlling what a woman can do, and what they believe is the purpose of a woman. Which is why I say there are likely religious undertones behind a lot of it (or just straight up misogyny).
You’d need a proper reason to force people to do something
“I’m the guy and this is what I want” - that is their reason.
Dont expect any sort of coherent or rational thought from anyone anti-abortion. Either they are incredibly ignorant, misogynistic, or a religious zealot.
Or, more likely, a combination of the three.
There are definitely women with kids who are against abortion. Source: I know some of them.
My sister in law with 8 children is “against it as a contraceptive” which I’m not convinced has been a thing for more than a handful of people that wasn’t due to lack of proper contraceptive access and education, or mental disorder.
However she AND her religious husband have been “reconsidering” purely from the goodness of their hearts and surely not because the majority of their children are girls, the oldest of which is soon to be a teenager, I’m sure. Definitely not because now it affects their family directly…
And because I’m sure someone will get a giggle out of this anecdote, they forbid any sleepovers with BOYS because they don’t want anyone “making purple”, but) and completely dismiss the fact that their girls could decide they would rather make pinker pink.
I totally understand the point and I’m not trying to undermine, but I’m curious is this close to the actual ratio for 79%?
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This just in, most people opposed to theft/murder/crime in general haven’t been direct victims but want to see a better society. These numbers go to show that numbers pulled out of thin air are meaningless.
Make your point without being anti- another group. Stop the US vs THEM bs.
I believe it for sure.
I don’t see what the ability to treat women as people who get control over their own bodies has to do with being a woman yourself or being able to become pregnant yourself.
Well, assuming the 79% statistic is accurate, you could start from that discrepancy and extrapolate from there?
Those 79% are irrelevant, what would be relevant is the opposite, which percentage of men are opposed to abortion, not how many of the people opposed to abortion are men.
Irrelevant to what? It’s fair to say she is clearly Pro-Choice, so understanding the demographics of those who are anti-choice is very relevant. Especially if your point is that “since 4 out of 5 people opposed to abortion rights are men, who will not be directly affected by these laws, their opinion is functionally irrelevant”.
Or are you just upset that this fails to acknowledge that just because men are more likely to be anti-abortion then women, that does not mean that men are more likely to be anti-abortion in general? Because I would argue the latter is irrelevant to the fact that the majority of people who are against abortion rights will never be directly affected by it.
Some (maybe most?) people are selfish and only care about policies which directly affect them?
I don’t think that is the root cause here, if that was true the people opposed to abortion wouldn’t feel so strongly about it because they aren’t really affected by other people having abortions (no, not even in their religious world view).
In fact, the percentage of the population directly affected by abortion legislation one way or the other is likely relatively small (not tiny, but probably not more than 20%) due to age and other life circumstances that make it unlikely for them to need one. The vast majority of the rest are people who “merely” have empathy with those who do and that includes men and women alike.
True
