Has she said she’s stop shipping them weapons and breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes?
No, right. Please correct me if I’m mistaken about that.
Harris ‘entirely supportive’ of using arms as leverage on Israel
So…
Please correct me if I’m mistaken about that.
Happy to have done so!
No, right.
Even though this was a yes, she absolutely has room to go more here, and I hope she does.
and breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes?
This one is oddly specific. So if Harris doesn’t exactly and precisely have that one specific view, then she would be a sock puppet no matter how far apart her beliefs are from Bidens?
This one is oddly specific. So if Harris doesn’t exactly and precisely have that one specific view, then she would be a sock puppet no matter how far apart her beliefs are from Bidens?
Oddly? you say?
The Leahy laws are specific. Have you heard of those? And you ship weapons or you dont. You see nuance there huh. Thats telling. Harris has committed to being “concerned about” food aid and thats it. Otherwise she has followed the Hasbarah playbook to a T. I keep seeing people hopeful she will chart a different couse, when she has explicitely stated she will continue the curret course. I think people are filled with Hopium about her pruposefully vague sentiments. She has simultaneously parroted the typical Hasbara script, stating that all of this started on Oct 7, that Israel wants its hostages back, and that Israelis have a “right to defend themselves”. She has also talked down to student protestors. She’s accepted AIPAC donations.
You quoted me a link from a tiny Israeli site that has a yellow war ribbon in their logo.
“Israelhayam” a far right low factual reporting website. That one of your favorites? I see on their front page its all war salivating israeli audience stuff. You Israeli?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/israel-hayom/
So you’re pushing Israeli propoganda. In their article they talk about a threat to pause shipments in May, in an article published in September. A single threat to pause that wasnt actually carried out, was it. Biden pretends to push back but he never has actually pulled the trigger on any actual pushback. And a pause – essentially a delay in shipping, Same as your amazon package getting delayed. Even if it was true and not made up, its is a meangless performative gesture at best. Biden has used exactly zero of his levers to move toward peace, and 100 percent of his levers to encourage the expansion and impunity of a bloodthirsty genocide and ethnic cleansing.
And Harris has indicated that she will continue on the same course he has charted.
This one is oddly specific. So if Harris doesn’t exactly and precisely have that one specific view, then she would be a sock puppet no matter how far apart her beliefs are from Bidens?
Oddly? you say?
Yes, it’s very odd to have a specific view about “breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” in the definition of sock puppetry. So in other words, “breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” is sock puppetry and “breaking Israeli law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” is not because the word US isn’t in there.
The Leahy laws are specific. Have you heard of those?
They’ve been mentioned a few times in the news recently. But they don’t seem to have any reference to sock puppetry. If you disagree, please show me the text of the relevant section of that law that defines it along with a proper analysis.
And you ship weapons or you dont. You see nuance there huh. Thats telling.
Of course. There’s a huge difference if the US is shipping only a single pistol with a single bullet in a century vs tens of thousands of nuclear armed ICBMs every single day. What the US is currently shipping to Israel under Biden lies somewhere between these two extremes (and imvho it’s still a bit too much, but I’ve already explained why I have hope that Harris will bring it down).
The fact that you can’t see nuance here is even more telling.
You see nuance there huh.
A bit surprised to see this as I didn’t mention nuance in the earlier quotes.
You quoted me a link from a tiny Israeli site that has a yellow war ribbon in their logo.
“Israelhayam” a far right low factual reporting website. That one of your favorites?
No, but the point is that even these guys are worried about Harris staying committed to the current level of arms shipments. If even folks of this flavour and persuasion are worried, then that’s very suggestive, no?
Biden pretends to push back but he never has actually pulled the trigger on any actual pushback.
So we were talking about Harris. Anyways, “pulled the trigger on any actual pushback” is a bit ambiguous - for example, some would argue that withholding 2,000 pound bombs while resuming 500 pound bomb deliveries (as per the above articles) is exactly that kind of pushback, while otherwise would say it’s a meaningless gesture.
And a pause – essentially a delay in shipping, Same as your amazon package getting delayed. Even if it was true and not made up, its is a meangless performative gesture at best.
Well, not quite the same as having an amazon package getting delayed. With amazon, you can get refunded (and then buy the same item from another vendor, say in person in a storefront) or have another of the same item reshipped to you (in the hopes of getting back faster). In either case it’d likely be resolved long before hitting five months.
In this case, there’s likely no other vendor to turn to for 2,000lb bombs. And there’s no question of reshipping or anything. So here we are five months later, with the pause fully in place.
Biden has used exactly zero of his levers to move toward peace, and 100 percent of his levers to encourage the expansion and impunity of a bloodthirsty genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Hmm…
Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned their Israeli counterparts in a letter dated Sunday that it must increase the amount of humanitarian aid being allowed into Gaza within the next 30 days or Israel could risk losing access to U.S. weapons funding.
Harris … called for Palestinian “freedom and self-determination”.
If this “will continue the same course that he has charted” then yes she will.
Fair to ask Harris to go further.
But again, she’s not a sock puppet and has already distinguished herself on this topic from Biden.
If you want to pretend laws arent laws, I dont know what to tell you. You cant just declare that reality is meaningless unless it adheres to your current most convenient outcome. This is exactly the centrist rot at the core of the party. We increasingly stand for nothing but a cult of personality as long as its slightly better than republicans, and thats not the dem party or the “America” I grew up with.
If you want to pretend laws arent laws, I dont know what to tell you.
Fortunately, I have no desire to go there. (As an aside, I am still waiting for the explanation regarding the laws on sock puppetry.)
You cant just declare that reality is meaningless unless it adheres to your current most convenient outcome
Which is why I have done no such thing, and am puzzled as to why you’d claim otherwise. Quote please?
We increasingly stand for nothing but a cult of personality as long as its slightly better than republicans,
Well, tbf “we’re better than that guy” is not really much of a personality cult. This is especially so when virtually anyone else is better than that guy.
thats not the dem party or the “America” I grew up with.
You must be far older than I. I only remember from the Clinton years, and Bill Clinton won in part because he was a fairly conservative Democrat from the midwestern state of Arkansas. So already in the early 90s Dems were aiming for centrist appeal.
This is exactly the centrist rot at the core of the party.
Well, it might be worth considering why the party chose to shift this way. The short answer is that the Electoral College grants too much voting power to the smaller states, which become the swing or battleground states, and so to win in the Electoral College and become President, those are the voters you have to cater to - and they happen to be not only more centralist, but probably more conservative than folks who live in huge east coast or west coast cities. See https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/22/13713148/electoral-college-democracy-race-white-voters for a more in-depth explanation.
I hate it too, but considering what’s at stake in this election, I’ll support Harris or anyone else who has a shot at winning that’s not the current GOP candidate. Though my hope is this:
Harris wins and Dems get enough majority control of both houses (enough to get around likely no votes from maverick Dems like Joe Manchin), then the Senate majority leader (Schumer) can lower the bar for a filibuster to a bare majority.
At this point there is now the required two-thirds majority of states required in the hands of the Dems, so a new constitution amendment dropping the Electoral College for a nationwide popular vote could be passed and ratified successfully.
As a bonus, also pass another amendment requiring ranked choice voting - this allows us more choices. We can safely vote third party as our first choice for President in the future, while having the more moderate Dem a 2nd or 3rd choice, meaning that we vote 3rd party without fearing the spoiler effect would prop up a MAGA candidate into office again. Which would allow more folks to feel safe in supporting their third party, meaning that third parties now have a more realistic chance of actually making it to the highest office.
Even if Dems don’t hold the Senate in 2024, the Senate maps look much better in 2026. So if they can keep the House of Reps in 2026 and retake the Senate then in sufficient numbers, this could still happen under Harris.
So in summary, the best hope of moving away from catering to centralist battleground state voters first requires getting Harris elected.
Btw, in case you were wondering, I’m a far leftie who back in 2020, would have preferred Andrew Yang… or failing that, Bernie Sanders. AOC wasn’t eligible then, but she would have had my vote as well if it were possible.
Has she said she’s stop shipping them weapons and breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes?
No, right. Please correct me if I’m mistaken about that.
As per the headline on https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/09/18/harris-supports-pausing-arms-shipment-to-israel/
So…
Happy to have done so!
Even though this was a yes, she absolutely has room to go more here, and I hope she does.
This one is oddly specific. So if Harris doesn’t exactly and precisely have that one specific view, then she would be a sock puppet no matter how far apart her beliefs are from Bidens?
On https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/us-elections-kamala-harris-biden-gaza-israel-war/ there are some specific examples of how she’s grown apart from Biden (while acknowledging that it’s not quite enough and suggesting that she should go even further).
Oddly? you say? The Leahy laws are specific. Have you heard of those? And you ship weapons or you dont. You see nuance there huh. Thats telling. Harris has committed to being “concerned about” food aid and thats it. Otherwise she has followed the Hasbarah playbook to a T. I keep seeing people hopeful she will chart a different couse, when she has explicitely stated she will continue the curret course. I think people are filled with Hopium about her pruposefully vague sentiments. She has simultaneously parroted the typical Hasbara script, stating that all of this started on Oct 7, that Israel wants its hostages back, and that Israelis have a “right to defend themselves”. She has also talked down to student protestors. She’s accepted AIPAC donations.
You quoted me a link from a tiny Israeli site that has a yellow war ribbon in their logo.
“Israelhayam” a far right low factual reporting website. That one of your favorites? I see on their front page its all war salivating israeli audience stuff. You Israeli? https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/israel-hayom/
So you’re pushing Israeli propoganda. In their article they talk about a threat to pause shipments in May, in an article published in September. A single threat to pause that wasnt actually carried out, was it. Biden pretends to push back but he never has actually pulled the trigger on any actual pushback. And a pause – essentially a delay in shipping, Same as your amazon package getting delayed. Even if it was true and not made up, its is a meangless performative gesture at best. Biden has used exactly zero of his levers to move toward peace, and 100 percent of his levers to encourage the expansion and impunity of a bloodthirsty genocide and ethnic cleansing.
And Harris has indicated that she will continue on the same course he has charted.
Yes, it’s very odd to have a specific view about “breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” in the definition of sock puppetry. So in other words, “breaking US law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” is sock puppetry and “breaking Israeli law about enabling regimes plausibly commiting war crimes” is not because the word US isn’t in there.
They’ve been mentioned a few times in the news recently. But they don’t seem to have any reference to sock puppetry. If you disagree, please show me the text of the relevant section of that law that defines it along with a proper analysis.
Of course. There’s a huge difference if the US is shipping only a single pistol with a single bullet in a century vs tens of thousands of nuclear armed ICBMs every single day. What the US is currently shipping to Israel under Biden lies somewhere between these two extremes (and imvho it’s still a bit too much, but I’ve already explained why I have hope that Harris will bring it down).
The fact that you can’t see nuance here is even more telling.
A bit surprised to see this as I didn’t mention nuance in the earlier quotes.
No, but the point is that even these guys are worried about Harris staying committed to the current level of arms shipments. If even folks of this flavour and persuasion are worried, then that’s very suggestive, no?
That said, it’s fair to ask for alternative sources if one is suspect. So happy to help again, thus here’s a different source, a non-Israeli progoganda source, for the same information: https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/washington-policy-weekly-harris-supports-pause-on-2000-pound-bombs-to-israel/
Again, happy to correct you!
Indeed it was, as per https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/10/biden-resumes-sending-israel-bombs
And it remained so even in late September, as per https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/28/world/middleeast/israel-nasrallah-bunker-buster-bombs.html
So we were talking about Harris. Anyways, “pulled the trigger on any actual pushback” is a bit ambiguous - for example, some would argue that withholding 2,000 pound bombs while resuming 500 pound bomb deliveries (as per the above articles) is exactly that kind of pushback, while otherwise would say it’s a meaningless gesture.
Well, not quite the same as having an amazon package getting delayed. With amazon, you can get refunded (and then buy the same item from another vendor, say in person in a storefront) or have another of the same item reshipped to you (in the hopes of getting back faster). In either case it’d likely be resolved long before hitting five months.
In this case, there’s likely no other vendor to turn to for 2,000lb bombs. And there’s no question of reshipping or anything. So here we are five months later, with the pause fully in place.
Hmm…
Source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-iran-oil-nuclear-sites-biden-f5dd702de7d990dd1d00f665e1484dee
And that was followed up by, https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-gaza-aid-letter-blinken-austin-warning-netanyahu-government-rcna175657
From https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/kamala-harris-israel-arms-biden ,
If this “will continue the same course that he has charted” then yes she will.
Fair to ask Harris to go further.
But again, she’s not a sock puppet and has already distinguished herself on this topic from Biden.
If you want to pretend laws arent laws, I dont know what to tell you. You cant just declare that reality is meaningless unless it adheres to your current most convenient outcome. This is exactly the centrist rot at the core of the party. We increasingly stand for nothing but a cult of personality as long as its slightly better than republicans, and thats not the dem party or the “America” I grew up with.
Fortunately, I have no desire to go there. (As an aside, I am still waiting for the explanation regarding the laws on sock puppetry.)
Which is why I have done no such thing, and am puzzled as to why you’d claim otherwise. Quote please?
Well, tbf “we’re better than that guy” is not really much of a personality cult. This is especially so when virtually anyone else is better than that guy.
You must be far older than I. I only remember from the Clinton years, and Bill Clinton won in part because he was a fairly conservative Democrat from the midwestern state of Arkansas. So already in the early 90s Dems were aiming for centrist appeal.
Well, it might be worth considering why the party chose to shift this way. The short answer is that the Electoral College grants too much voting power to the smaller states, which become the swing or battleground states, and so to win in the Electoral College and become President, those are the voters you have to cater to - and they happen to be not only more centralist, but probably more conservative than folks who live in huge east coast or west coast cities. See https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/22/13713148/electoral-college-democracy-race-white-voters for a more in-depth explanation.
I hate it too, but considering what’s at stake in this election, I’ll support Harris or anyone else who has a shot at winning that’s not the current GOP candidate. Though my hope is this:
Harris wins and Dems get enough majority control of both houses (enough to get around likely no votes from maverick Dems like Joe Manchin), then the Senate majority leader (Schumer) can lower the bar for a filibuster to a bare majority.
Then basically follow this plan https://www.vox.com/2020/1/14/21063591/modest-proposal-to-save-american-democracy-pack-the-union-harvard-law-review - the TLDR is to pass a new law post-filibuster removal to admit each neighborhood of DC as its own state, which would add 127 new Dem states in all.
At this point there is now the required two-thirds majority of states required in the hands of the Dems, so a new constitution amendment dropping the Electoral College for a nationwide popular vote could be passed and ratified successfully.
As a bonus, also pass another amendment requiring ranked choice voting - this allows us more choices. We can safely vote third party as our first choice for President in the future, while having the more moderate Dem a 2nd or 3rd choice, meaning that we vote 3rd party without fearing the spoiler effect would prop up a MAGA candidate into office again. Which would allow more folks to feel safe in supporting their third party, meaning that third parties now have a more realistic chance of actually making it to the highest office.
Even if Dems don’t hold the Senate in 2024, the Senate maps look much better in 2026. So if they can keep the House of Reps in 2026 and retake the Senate then in sufficient numbers, this could still happen under Harris.
So in summary, the best hope of moving away from catering to centralist battleground state voters first requires getting Harris elected.
Btw, in case you were wondering, I’m a far leftie who back in 2020, would have preferred Andrew Yang… or failing that, Bernie Sanders. AOC wasn’t eligible then, but she would have had my vote as well if it were possible.