In his book How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them (2018), Jason Stanley defined fascism as “a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of humiliation brought on by supposed communists, Marxists and minorities and immigrants who are supposedly posing a threat to the character and the history of a nation” and that “The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors.”
While this resonates with trump, could you tell me how this fits to other American presidents? What traits US poses to call it “fascist”?
Before I get to your question…that’s a really weird definition. I mean it excludes most stereotypical fascist regimes, like nazi Germany for example. A communist revolution wasn’t really on their list of fears or even concerns. In Weimar Germany they even shared voters. Most communist party voters became nazi voters once they became a thing, they run on the same platform. It’s in the bloody name, Nazi = National Socialism. This definition seems to deliberately only target America, the US is the only one that goes fucking ape-shit when socialism let alone communist is at all mentioned.
Anyways, to your question. We weren’t really talking about presidents specifically, tho most of them fit the bill. Both democrats and republicans say the fucking “you’re with me or against me” shit, like really??? The US generally has a rich history of violently shutting down competing powers, be it domestic or abroad (a 2 party system IS NOT natural for a democracy!). American imperialist wars are pretty much build on forcefully spreading American culture at any cost (especially if it involves killing anybody claiming to be socialist or not christian). From a young age US citizens are indoctrinated, the shit where they swear loyalty to the flag every morning is creepy as fuck, also the flash everywhere. Like christ, just look at how Americans treat foreigners. Didn’t even mention the police yet…
Both democrats and republicans say the fucking “you’re with me or against me” shit, like really???
Is this really what makes a fascist? Almost every party in democratic world uses similar rhetorics.
The US generally has a rich history of violently shutting down competing powers
This is pretty much 99% of human history
a 2 party system IS NOT natural for a democracy!
and what to tell about single party systems, like China? Do you call them fascist too?
American imperialist wars are pretty much build on forcefully spreading American culture at any cost
I do not feel forced to watch “Top gun” or eat McDonalds
(especially if it involves killing anybody claiming to be socialist or not christian)
thanks god they did not kill Bernie Sanders
From a young age US citizens are indoctrinated
like any other fucking country, just look at Chinese schools
the shit where they swear loyalty to the flag every morning is creepy as fuck
still, rather weird tradition or aesthetics, not a fascism, for fuck’s sake
Like christ, just look at how Americans treat foreigners
they behave like assholes at worst, still millions of foreign people dream about living in USA
Didn’t even mention the police yet…
This sucks indeed, but this is not inherent to USA, rather to police in general.
Summing things up, these accusations about fascism seems completely baseless and using the word “fascism” in the context of US is just making it meaningless and makes impression that US are similar to nazi Germany. US are imperialist at best, but boy, I prefer to live under US empire that fucking russian shithole.
Correct, and modern democracies tried their best to change course. Some more successfully than others. If you want successful examples look at Finland, those guys played a significant role in many peace treaties, including the famous European peace. And here’s the kicker, FOR NOTHING IN RETURN. Or rather no immediate monetary or political gain.
and what to tell about single party systems, like China? Do you call them fascist too?
YES, quite literally and unironically YES! Like come on? “Communism with Chinese Characteristics”? We’re just a couple word plays away from “National Socialism”. The Chinese government is actively conducting ethnic cleansing and jailing anybody who isn’t Chinese enough. Come on!
I do not feel forced to watch “Top gun” or eat McDonalds
At this point I’m starting to feel you’re a troll, but hey, it’s fun, so let’s keep going xD
I was more referring to America’s foreign policy here.
thanks god they did not kill Bernie Sanders
Again, mainly meant foreign policy. However Burnie doesn’t get off free either. The democrats didn’t even give him a chance to be a presidential candidate despite being the crowd favorite. The guy’s getting silenced.
like any other fucking country, just look at Chinese schools
Not every country, again, look at Finland, Estonia or the Netherlands. Great examples of an education system that respect the people’s freedoms. And while most other European countries have something fucked up, non are anywhere near “KNEEL FOR THE FLAG!” level.
still, rather weird tradition or aesthetics, not a fascism, for fuck’s sake
Weird esthetics? Maybe because the esthetic invokes the other counties that did this which most were under either fascism or communism. Like sure, it doesn’t necessarily make you fascists, but role-playing as one every morning is still fucking suspicious.
they behave like assholes at worst, still millions of foreign people dream about living in USA
Look in a mirror. The US treats everyone else like a terrorist before they even step foot into the country. And yes, half the people that didn’t go to America yet still think it’s amazing. America is really good at advertising. If America doesn’t want foreigners to dream about it, maybe it could stop advertising it self as the only valid way of life.
This sucks indeed, but this is not inherent to USA, rather to police in general.
Kinda, there are some bad apples in other counties too, like France for example. But the US still stands proud and tall for having one of the worst. Literally no other county arrest more people per capita than American. Not even your favorite China. Also having snipers at every protest? Fucking really? Direct military hand downs?
You say my “accusations”, but most of what I said are statements you didn’t even negate, just said that some of em don’t necessarily make the US fascist and the rest you renamed to “imperialism”, which IS NOT BETTER! The only difference is that imperialism doesn’t need to include nationalism, it’s an umbrella term, under which fascism falls under!
But boy, it’s funny you’d mention the Russian shithole, considering the US seems rather proactively aiming towards it. The republicans especially seem to have em as their role model. If things keep changing the way they have been for the last 20 years, I give it tops another 30 years before the only thing that makes America better than Russia will be the running water. Maybe faster if the supreme courts keeps up the pace it demonstrated the last 2 weeks.
First of all, I made references to China and Russia because I wrongly assumed that you are a tankie (I perceive the Lefty Memes community as the nest of them). My apologies.
While choosing East vs West is by no means comfortable, it is actually true. You made examples of countries like Finland, Estonia or the Netherlands. The last one recently has turned far right, but overall countries like that, including Sweden and Norway are cool and as for me, the rest of the world could be like this, I do not expect more from the world and I saw too much to dream about some communist utopia. Anyway, such cute countries alone cannot compete military and thus geopolitically with behemots like Russia or China (though Sweden and Finland seems to have decent means to defend themselves). And history taught us that since the dawn of humanity the winner is the guy with the bigger stick. Even within NATO, the European countries are rather supporters to US. Therefore, at the global stage, this all boils down to the dichotomy East VS West or NATO (mainly US) VS Russia+Iran+North_Korea+China. In the end of the day, there are only us VS them.
But boy, it’s funny you’d mention the Russian shithole, considering the US seems rather proactively aiming towards it. The republicans especially seem to have em as their role model.
This actually scares shit out of me. WTF. I wish they had to live in Russian province for couple of months, that would be a good part of punishment. The US cannot be defended from outside, but only by itself (by republicans, to be precise).
To the rest of the points I generally agree, but… If you pick only the shittiest parts of this country, you end up with such a picture. Again, I feel it is not right to equate the main trait of Nazi Germany (fascism) to US, who helped to liberate half of the Europe from this brown shit. Even in the case of genocidal China, “authoritarian” seems a more proper word. There is no consensus on definition of fascism, so neither you or I can provide more than such judgments. Back to US, even if it fails to realize the “American Dream” to many, it is RELATIVELY bearable hegemon in the history. And in the jungle, there is always one.
Ey, cheers mate, refreshing to get a composed response!
I’d argue there are more sides than just NATO vs China and friends. India often fucks over both sides because both refuse to acknowledge it and its concerns for example. It saddens me that such counties don’t give a shit, but I can’t really fault them too much considering we do the same to them. And such rhetoric only serves as fuel for them to mock us.
You’re definitely right that we also need military might to protect our values, as a European I’m disgusted by our inactivity and reliance on the US. On the subject of cute counties, I’d argue Finland isn’t one of em, I’d also add Sweeden just for military reasons while I’m at it. Both have strong militaries with plenty of reserves/mobilization potential, Finland even has nuclear ready bunkers under every major city. So glad we got em in NATO now, hope the rest of Europe catches up soon.
And not gonna lie, as much as I shit on America, it’s largely because I’m also sacred. The US is on a slippery slope due to decades of ignorance and if the US goes to shit it’s gonna have far and wide consequences around the globe. I hope the Trump situation will act as a wake up call for us in Europe, and we’ll get our shit together, not only to be self sufficient, but hopefully emerge as a genuine ally for peace and freedom that reaches beyond diplomacy. If America falls and Europe doesn’t get its shit together, that’s good bye for Ukraine and then what? That would set a new standard, a world in which might makes right… No even an attempt at rule of law.
While this resonates with trump, could you tell me how this fits to other American presidents? What traits US poses to call it “fascist”?
Before I get to your question…that’s a really weird definition. I mean it excludes most stereotypical fascist regimes, like nazi Germany for example. A communist revolution wasn’t really on their list of fears or even concerns. In Weimar Germany they even shared voters. Most communist party voters became nazi voters once they became a thing, they run on the same platform. It’s in the bloody name, Nazi = National Socialism. This definition seems to deliberately only target America, the US is the only one that goes fucking ape-shit when socialism let alone communist is at all mentioned.
Anyways, to your question. We weren’t really talking about presidents specifically, tho most of them fit the bill. Both democrats and republicans say the fucking “you’re with me or against me” shit, like really??? The US generally has a rich history of violently shutting down competing powers, be it domestic or abroad (a 2 party system IS NOT natural for a democracy!). American imperialist wars are pretty much build on forcefully spreading American culture at any cost (especially if it involves killing anybody claiming to be socialist or not christian). From a young age US citizens are indoctrinated, the shit where they swear loyalty to the flag every morning is creepy as fuck, also the flash everywhere. Like christ, just look at how Americans treat foreigners. Didn’t even mention the police yet…
Is this really what makes a fascist? Almost every party in democratic world uses similar rhetorics.
This is pretty much 99% of human history
and what to tell about single party systems, like China? Do you call them fascist too?
I do not feel forced to watch “Top gun” or eat McDonalds
thanks god they did not kill Bernie Sanders
like any other fucking country, just look at Chinese schools
still, rather weird tradition or aesthetics, not a fascism, for fuck’s sake
they behave like assholes at worst, still millions of foreign people dream about living in USA
This sucks indeed, but this is not inherent to USA, rather to police in general.
Summing things up, these accusations about fascism seems completely baseless and using the word “fascism” in the context of US is just making it meaningless and makes impression that US are similar to nazi Germany. US are imperialist at best, but boy, I prefer to live under US empire that fucking russian shithole.
Nope, predominantly an American quote in the 21st century. And while it doesn’t necessarily make you a fascists, it does check the extreme tribalism flag. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_are_either_with_us,_or_against_us
Correct, and modern democracies tried their best to change course. Some more successfully than others. If you want successful examples look at Finland, those guys played a significant role in many peace treaties, including the famous European peace. And here’s the kicker, FOR NOTHING IN RETURN. Or rather no immediate monetary or political gain.
YES, quite literally and unironically YES! Like come on? “Communism with Chinese Characteristics”? We’re just a couple word plays away from “National Socialism”. The Chinese government is actively conducting ethnic cleansing and jailing anybody who isn’t Chinese enough. Come on!
At this point I’m starting to feel you’re a troll, but hey, it’s fun, so let’s keep going xD I was more referring to America’s foreign policy here.
Again, mainly meant foreign policy. However Burnie doesn’t get off free either. The democrats didn’t even give him a chance to be a presidential candidate despite being the crowd favorite. The guy’s getting silenced.
Not every country, again, look at Finland, Estonia or the Netherlands. Great examples of an education system that respect the people’s freedoms. And while most other European countries have something fucked up, non are anywhere near “KNEEL FOR THE FLAG!” level.
Weird esthetics? Maybe because the esthetic invokes the other counties that did this which most were under either fascism or communism. Like sure, it doesn’t necessarily make you fascists, but role-playing as one every morning is still fucking suspicious.
Look in a mirror. The US treats everyone else like a terrorist before they even step foot into the country. And yes, half the people that didn’t go to America yet still think it’s amazing. America is really good at advertising. If America doesn’t want foreigners to dream about it, maybe it could stop advertising it self as the only valid way of life.
Kinda, there are some bad apples in other counties too, like France for example. But the US still stands proud and tall for having one of the worst. Literally no other county arrest more people per capita than American. Not even your favorite China. Also having snipers at every protest? Fucking really? Direct military hand downs?
You say my “accusations”, but most of what I said are statements you didn’t even negate, just said that some of em don’t necessarily make the US fascist and the rest you renamed to “imperialism”, which IS NOT BETTER! The only difference is that imperialism doesn’t need to include nationalism, it’s an umbrella term, under which fascism falls under!
But boy, it’s funny you’d mention the Russian shithole, considering the US seems rather proactively aiming towards it. The republicans especially seem to have em as their role model. If things keep changing the way they have been for the last 20 years, I give it tops another 30 years before the only thing that makes America better than Russia will be the running water. Maybe faster if the supreme courts keeps up the pace it demonstrated the last 2 weeks.
First of all, I made references to China and Russia because I wrongly assumed that you are a tankie (I perceive the Lefty Memes community as the nest of them). My apologies.
While choosing East vs West is by no means comfortable, it is actually true. You made examples of countries like Finland, Estonia or the Netherlands. The last one recently has turned far right, but overall countries like that, including Sweden and Norway are cool and as for me, the rest of the world could be like this, I do not expect more from the world and I saw too much to dream about some communist utopia. Anyway, such cute countries alone cannot compete military and thus geopolitically with behemots like Russia or China (though Sweden and Finland seems to have decent means to defend themselves). And history taught us that since the dawn of humanity the winner is the guy with the bigger stick. Even within NATO, the European countries are rather supporters to US. Therefore, at the global stage, this all boils down to the dichotomy East VS West or NATO (mainly US) VS Russia+Iran+North_Korea+China. In the end of the day, there are only us VS them.
This actually scares shit out of me. WTF. I wish they had to live in Russian province for couple of months, that would be a good part of punishment. The US cannot be defended from outside, but only by itself (by republicans, to be precise).
To the rest of the points I generally agree, but… If you pick only the shittiest parts of this country, you end up with such a picture. Again, I feel it is not right to equate the main trait of Nazi Germany (fascism) to US, who helped to liberate half of the Europe from this brown shit. Even in the case of genocidal China, “authoritarian” seems a more proper word. There is no consensus on definition of fascism, so neither you or I can provide more than such judgments. Back to US, even if it fails to realize the “American Dream” to many, it is RELATIVELY bearable hegemon in the history. And in the jungle, there is always one.
Ey, cheers mate, refreshing to get a composed response!
I’d argue there are more sides than just NATO vs China and friends. India often fucks over both sides because both refuse to acknowledge it and its concerns for example. It saddens me that such counties don’t give a shit, but I can’t really fault them too much considering we do the same to them. And such rhetoric only serves as fuel for them to mock us.
You’re definitely right that we also need military might to protect our values, as a European I’m disgusted by our inactivity and reliance on the US. On the subject of cute counties, I’d argue Finland isn’t one of em, I’d also add Sweeden just for military reasons while I’m at it. Both have strong militaries with plenty of reserves/mobilization potential, Finland even has nuclear ready bunkers under every major city. So glad we got em in NATO now, hope the rest of Europe catches up soon.
And not gonna lie, as much as I shit on America, it’s largely because I’m also sacred. The US is on a slippery slope due to decades of ignorance and if the US goes to shit it’s gonna have far and wide consequences around the globe. I hope the Trump situation will act as a wake up call for us in Europe, and we’ll get our shit together, not only to be self sufficient, but hopefully emerge as a genuine ally for peace and freedom that reaches beyond diplomacy. If America falls and Europe doesn’t get its shit together, that’s good bye for Ukraine and then what? That would set a new standard, a world in which might makes right… No even an attempt at rule of law.