I can’t understand why so many people are against someone dying with dignity. This is a form of harm reduction for not just the patient, but also their loved ones, and society in general.
Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide. Nobody wants the last memory of their loved ones to be the scene of their (potentially messy) suicide.
And that’s not to mention the trauma inflicted on bystanders for some of the more public suicide methods (not to mention that jumping to your death or intentionally walking into/driving into traffic has a decent chance of physically injuring or killing said bystanders).
If this process is undertaken with care and compassion, it’s far less likely to be traumatizing to all involved. And it prevents “spur of the moment” decisions, like many successful suicides are.
“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die… But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”
She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.
Honestly and genuinely, I’m glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn’t need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she’s been longing for.
Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.
Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜
P. S. There’s thousands of live today that want to live. They don’t want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.
It’s her choice what can we really do? It’s tragic but because it is so visible while many others are in this position without such visibility.
I pray I never experience this state of things however at the same time I know I will sooner or later. I sometimes approach the state of insufferable mental torture however it is never permanent or hopeless but I have some tiny glimpse to understand her decision.
The choice of how one exits life is the last bastion of power the living have.
We can change societies in a few ways to reduce the number of people that reach her situation. That’s going to take a very long time. Another thing that could be done is creating a plan for people in her situation. I think this will happen in the future (and will impact society in general). It has to do with the use of psychedelics. It may sound crazy to some, but I’d recommend we give people like this some shrooms, then escalate that to something like Ayahuasca and then DMT. If she still feels like nothing is worth it at that point, so be it, but I believe she’d change her mind on this path and have the potential to live a much happier life. This comment may seem extreme now, but looking back, I don’t think it will be.
I’m currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I’ve been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
This is the wrong decision. Suicide is usually a consequence of hopelessness. In my experience, hope can be brought back to most people suffering from mental health issues.
It also sets a dangerous precedent. A way out, so to speak, for people with a temporary, overcomable problem.
(For the record, I am ok with medical assistance in dying when it comes to chronic severe pain and illness).
Do you really think that becoming a therapist is a good idea when you can’t even read the article which lays out her hopeless situation?
Also this isn’t a precedent.
Also why are you okay with assistance in dying when it comes to pain and illness but not mental illness? Because you can’t see/diagnose the latter so easily?
This is definitely a nuanced discussion and every situation is different, so I’m not going to make any sweeping statements about the whole thing, but I generally see suicidality as a symptom of something else. If we can improve the “something else,” the suicidality improves or even goes away in the vast majority of cases.
This is different from other Medical Assistance in Death situations because in the cases where it is implemented because of pain and illness, there is no reasonable hope of improving their outcomes. In the vast majority of mental health cases, there is a lot of hope, even if the patient does not see it (which is often. Most situations where a person expresses suicidal ideation and intention to family, friends, or therapists do not end in follow through. Having someone to talk to about those thoughts helps. Even validating their thoughts helps: “It makes sense that you feel like that, honestly.” But ultimately, you want to help them get through to the next day. The vast majority of people who were in this circumstance are glad they did not follow through).
Again, the discussion is nuanced and I don’t think Lemmy is the best place to facilitate this discussion, but that is more or less my take on it.
Dude… Did you still not read the article?
And do you think that it was willy billy that the state approved her request?
I’m currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I’ve been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
So you are not a therapist.
Bodily autonomy includes the right to die, if one choses to do so. Are you against bodily autonomy?
And what do you think would happen if she had been denied? Instead of a dignified death in a safe environment she might have resorted to options available to her, possibly endangering other people as well.
How did you misconstrue their comment so badly? Are therapists not allowed to work with students? I believe there is a clear and obvious difference between bodily autonomy, having the right to die with dignity, and euthanasia. This lady stated she “cannot cope with the suffering” and yet she proceeded to do so for three years while waiting patiently for approval. IMO anyone with truly intolerable suffering (mental or otherwise) would have found a way out long before this decision.
Are therapists not allowed to work with students?
Read the comment again and try to figure out why I said they aren’t a therapist. Hint: It’s in the very first sentence.
IMO anyone with truly intolerable suffering (mental or otherwise) would have found a way out long before this decision.
How would you know?
The previous commentor sounds exactly like all those people who have harassed Zoraya with their bullshit “miracle cures”.
It had always astounded me that we offer painless, merciful euthanasia to our pets and animals, both wild and domesticated, yet not to our fellow humans, who must suffer until the bitter end.
It’s the remnants of the religious infestation that still slumbers in the collective consciousness of society that makes madness like that possible.
Unsolicited Conservative: “Has she tried to put God on that wound? If only she was religious…”
Dude, doctors will even try homeopathy before resorting to euthanasia.
I didn’t agree with this decision. Life is precious.
She should do some extreme sports. Jump out of a plane with one of those flying squirrel things.
Hopefully she donates her organs
“I’m depressed and want to take my life. I’ve been struggling since my childhood and in 10 years of different kinds of treatments, nothing worked.”
“Have you tried jumping out of a plane with one of those flying squirrel things?”
“Oh wow, that was it, that fixed it! Thanks!” /s
Just jump into the Happy Canon that shoots you into Happyland you will be so much more Happy!
“Going into Happyland” sounds like a great euphemism. I’m going to steal it if you don’t mind.
Please do. It’s just a variation of the job cannon meme.
Can I have one to? I’m 8 years older than her, so it shouldn’t be a problem, right?
Seriously, is everyone on Lemmy 37 years old?
Fuck… I’m 37 years old :O
Today is my birthday. Guess my age…
Yah happy 37th to you Brothersister!
Goodbye Zoraya ter Beek, and never stop fighting!
Also the utter disrespect on social media, flooding her accounts with stupid Messages.
Don’t really agree with this. If you look at it on an individual level, there’s a case for it, but on a social level, it’s dangerous. Individualist societies look for individual solutions even if the problem is social. There are problems that can’t be solved with any sort of medication, therapy, etc, because the cause of the problem isn’t with the individual. It’s impossible to know for sure if any kind of social change would fix her problems, but if suicide is simply the go-to answer when such a problem is encountered, then we will never know. And once this becomes normalized and people start accepting it as a viable solution, then it’s going to be a lot harder to materially improve things for people in these situations. Often it’s only when people see that there is no individualist solution that they start thinking in terms of systemic changes, and if there’s any kind of “solution,” no matter how horrid it is, they’ll turn to that first. I don’t want to create a future where, “I’ve tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit,” is met with a polite and friendly, “Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?”
Suicide is violence. Self-harm is harm. It’s nonsense to describe a process that kills you as “safe.” I understand that many people view it terms of rights or personal wills because those are prevailing ways to look at things, in individualist cultures. But life is inherently valuable and if someone thinks otherwise about their own, then they are wrong. I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain, but while mental pain is just as real and valid as physical pain, the way it functions is more complex, and so I’m skeptical that it could be declared “incurable” to a sufficient standard, especially if solutions aren’t limited to the individual level.
The fact is that we ought to be striving to accommodate as widely diverse minds as possible. Both because it’s the right thing to do, and because diversity is valuable, and people who see things differently may notice or understand things that others don’t. If the diversity of minds starts to narrow, I’m concerned that it will continue to narrow until neurodiverse people are effectively eliminated from society, or be isolated without community, as more and more pressure builds against anyone who doesn’t fit the mold of a productive worker.
I don’t want to create a future where, “I’ve tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit,” is met with a polite and friendly, “Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?”
Are you for real? This kind of thing is a last resort that nobody is going to just outright suggest unprompted to a suffering person, unless that person asks for it themselves. No matter how “normalized” suicide might become, it’s never gonna be something doctors will want to recommend. That’s just… Why would you even think that’s what’s gonna happen
…and did you notice how everyone was outraged by that? That incident was not an issue with assisted suicide being available, that was an issue with fucked up systems withholding existing alternatives and a tone-deaf case worker (who is not a doctor) handling impersonal communications. Maybe it’s also an issue with this kind of thing being able to be decided by a government worker instead of medical and psychological professionals. But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn’t have been put into the spotlight like this.
You’re the one that specified doctors, not me. I just said I don’t want to create a future where anyone thinks it’s ok or normal to recommend suicide to people. You dismissed my fears as unrealistic, and then I presented evidence that it’s not just a far off possibility, but something that’s actually happened. Many people may find that story outrageous now, but it’s clearly pushing things in a direction such that in 20 years, who’s to say how people will react.
But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn’t have been put into the spotlight like this.
Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.
where anyone thinks it’s ok or normal to recommend suicide to people
Except that’s already happening even without it being normalized, there have always been assholes that are gonna tell people to kill themselves, especially if they’ve never seen the person they’re talking to before. I don’t see how this is any different.
Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.
It also wouldn’t have happened if a fucked up system wasn’t withholding actual, reasonable alternatives that the person was clearly asking for. That’s my point. Let’s fix the actual problems, rather than try to silence the symptoms.
I am all about giving people the possibility to put an end to their lives and there are plenty of people who are living almost unbearable lives, full of pain and suffering. And I know it is wrong to judge people without being in their shoes but, part of me is refusing to accept that a person who is apparently, young and physically healthy and in a relationship where the other partner obviously cares about her is so depressive and miserable that she wants to die.
So I have mixed feelings in this particular case and I feel sorry for her family and partner, who I am sure really wanted her to get better.
Nevertheless, I am happy that there are still doctors who are willing to take such cases because I can imagine how hard and psychologically challenging it would be to work with those people and they have my full respect.
Yeah, especially with curable and non progressive conditions
Did you read the article? She’s been in intensive care for her mental health for a decade. This wasn’t some spur of the moment decision. Its taken 10 years to get to this point. To state that mental illnesses are curable and non-progressive is pure ignorance and you would do yourself well to learn how poor the prognosis is for people with severe mental illness. There isn’t a cure. You never feel whole or normal. Medication is a shot in the dark most of the time. Therapy doesn’t help everybody. Some people are truly and completely untreatable, and she is one of those people
to state that mental illnesses are curable is pure ignorance
Lol
Name a single curable mental illness.
I’ll help you out: there aren’t any. Some can be managed and worked around in day to day life. Some people may achieve a reasonable quality of life, but their illness will never totally disappear
I am a psychotherapist. Mental disorders are often curable. Our mind, our psyche, our brain develop and change in every waking moment, one small increment at a a time. A good indication for this are mental disorders themselves. Their emergence is proof of our mind’s capability to change - for the worse, in this case, but change nonetheless.
So in theory it should always be possible to change the other way around, to get significantly better to the point where the disorder is no longer present. (If you define a episode of mental health and wellbeing after a depressive episode as “managing” a still present disorder, then sure, they are incurable, but that’s because that’s part of your definition to begin with. The symptoms of a mental disorder can definitely disappear.) A more difficult question would be if our surroundings and social realities allow for so much change to take place. And sometimes, unfortunately, this isn’t possible, since our society can be a fucked up place and economic constrains have an unavoidable influence on our capability to shape our own path.
Still, in my personal experience working with hundreds of patiens in different therapeutic setting, most people can (and do) reclaim their mental health, given supportive surroundings and adequate treatment. From your pessimistic outlook at mental health I will cautiously assume that you don’t have those widely available to you. In this case you’d be somewhat right: Under such circumstances the possibilities to cure mental disorders are limited. Another complicating factor might be mental disorders themselves though. The feeling of “this is never going to get better, I’ll never be happy again” is one most people with depressive disorders know all to well. So if we ask the affected people directly we will often arrive at the conclusion that the disorders are in fact incurable. And that’s a horrible feeling for sure. I find it important to remember though that what our thoughts tell us in those dark episodes isn’t necessarily the truth. In this case I’d argue it isn’t. I’ve seen too many examples of the opposite, luckily.
I’ve had those depressive thoughts, I’ve fought self harm and depression. I have mostly gotten past it and during the period, I don’t think I ever saw light at the end of the tunnel.
I’m glad she is able to get the relief she needs. I couldn’t imagine putting someone through the turmoil that I had during my lowest points. It’s sad, but it’s okay for things to be sad in life. I’m glad she is able to have frank discussions on her desires and her wellbeing. It’s going to be hard for her partner, friends, and family, but it would be so much worse and so traumatic if she didn’t have help or had to hide the desires until she took her own life regardless of the laws.
It’s going to be hard for her partner, friends, and family, but it would be so much worse and so traumatic if she didn’t have help or had to hide the desires until she took her own life regardless of the laws.
I’m not sure that’s true. Losing someone to suicide is in itself quite traumatic. One relief many people have is when they wrap their head around how a self destructive impulse in the heat of an especially devastating moment could have led to it. But living with the fact that your daughter/wife/sister/friend very consciously decided she would rather be dead than to share in this life with you - that’s tough. It’s not unusual with relatives of suicide victims to struggle with feelings of intense anger towards the person they lost, which in turn can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. It’s hard to work through something like that. And I don’t think it gets any easier if the circumstances are as emphasised as in this case.
I think there are very valid use cases for assisted suicide. Personally I doubt that depression is one of them, because suicidality is such an inextricable part of the disorder itself. At the end of the day this is a suicide, just with extra steps and a stamp of approval by a national agency. The people surviving her will not only have to work through the fact of her suicide but process the official approval as well.
The only advantage to a “regular” suicide I can think of is avoiding the trauma of the person finding you. (Although there are probably ways around that anyway.) But I guess she has her reasons to have chosen this specific method and setting.
