Body: I’m tired, let’s go to bed
Brain: Nah, I think I’ll stay up super late instead and be tired tomorrow for no reason.
You forgot my favorite of sleep-hating-brain internal dialogue!
"Why would you need to sleep until your alarm goes off when I can wake you early and you can be anxious about not sleeping! Or all the stuff you feel you should now start but are too tired to do even though you know I won’t let you sleep!
Wouldn’t want to sleep through that! Why do you think I kept you up so late??"
There’s also:
Brain: Okay, time to do things!
Body: Ehh… Later, let’s just lay here and have anxiety about not doing the things
"In a world of disorder I lie awake
Knowing there’s nothing I can do
In a world of disorder I lie awake
Knowing there’s something I can do"
Disorder - Chiasm
There’s different ways to interpret these, but given the topic here I’ve found another one.
Even ADHD-oriented media is often being dishonest with people who suspect themselves to have this condition, being toxicly positive and showing ADHD as a “superpower” as if you can hyperfocus your way to success. It is neither a gift nor even an equal exchange between advantages and drawbacks like “you’ll be always late but also always creative!” It’s a crippling thing that may ruin career or end a relationship. There is nothing good with ADHD.
Absolutely. People want there to be a fair trade-off, but life just doesn’t work that way. I’ve seen similar romanticization of autism too, especially with the “savants”.
Life is 3d6, not point buy.
I’m beginning to suspect “superfocus” is just what normal people do when they focus.
Nah, super focus is totally a thing, just not everyone does it.
My wife can’t sit in a computer chair for 8 hours straight playing a game/editing a video/writing something/reading Wikipedia really hard, but I can.
And no, I can’t control it so it’s not a superpower, it’s random enforced focus and it’s only sometimes a helpful thing. Usually the work I do when doing it gets worse much faster and it does major damage to your body to sit in 1 position for that long not peeing.
My brother in law has ADHD. He lives next door to me.
He has a car he parks on the street. In my city you’re required to get a registration sticker for your car, it’s like $100 or something, good for a year. Every day you don’t have a valid sticker you can get a new ticket on your car. It takes two minutes to go online and order a new one.
For the last three years, hes been racking up tickets on his car for an expired sticker. One a week roughly, $60 per ticket I think. He usually lets them pile up until he gets final notices then pays them all online at double the cost.
Twice now he’s has his car booted, then impounded, due to unpaid tickets. He even includes tickets on his car as part of budgeting. I’ve offered a couple times if he’d hand me his license to go online and order the sticker for him. I’ve stopped offering since that offer is met with intense anger.
It takes TWO MINUTES to go online and order a new one. Poor guy
I sometimes can’t order food for my cat online for months and feed him with some local shop one when it runs out at the last minute
Or litter same story.
It would be cheaper, more choice, maybe healthier but I can’t force myself to sit click on site, choose one, find credit card, type it etc.
So I always wait till last drop of cat food runs out and then full of guilt hurry outside to search for open shop. At least there is less choice in local shops.
Choices paralyse me. I will spent hours thinking which one to choose even if it’s completely minor and especially online as IRL I simply can’t stand too long I have to grab something.
Also one shopkeeper I think thought I was into her I think but now after a while she just looks sad and annoyed when I come instead of joyous and kind of eee weird but I have no idea to be honest it all may be just overthinking which is also a problem. I am fucking clueless and I don’t even know if I was/am interested. Probably not right I would know if I was I hope it would be obvious like idk heart pounding or whatever. Right? Right?
The intense anger is probably something he could work on.
Is this really ADHD. I might have to get tested. Everything people are posting here sounds like me.
I often wonder as well. Then I think: is this not just the human condition. In any case I seem to score pretty high on those online questionnaires.
It’s a matter of scale, not a binary.
Having a thing that you need to do but just “don’t” is perfectly common.
Having it happen so regularly that you reliably spend a measurable part of your day wondering why you can’t just “do the thing”, or it starts to have measurable negative impacts on your job, life and relationships isn’t normal.Everyone feels down sometimes, but not everyone has a serotonin balance problem.
Everyone feels difficulty focusing sometimes, but not everyone has a dopamine balance problem.Not all cases of depression are a serotonin issue though. A lot of it is situational.
That’s fair, situations can also cause serotonin to get suppressed without it being an inate production issue.
This is why they recommended talk therapy in conjunction with any medication, in part so that they can reevaluate if the medication is still needed. :)
What of many of the things you’re “supposed to do” are things you don’t actually want to do and therefore you don’t do? What if it’s external circumstances define what’s called a mental disorder?
Would you feel like you have a mental disorder if you lived in some completely different context?
I’m just wondering if we can call things a disorder that might mostly arise because society is built around working better for more neurotypical people (it at all).
Would you call it a disorder being tall if for some reason most people were short and all our infrastrucure were built for short people?
I’m not questioning the difficulties many people have with their lives. I’m wondering what to do about it and where the threshold is.
So, I definitely think that society has a tendency to want to “fix” behavior traits that are difficult or annoying, but I think there are also a lot that are actually problematic.
For example, with my ADHD, I get stuck doing stuff I don’t like doing at the expense of stuff I do enjoy. Just last night after my meds wore off, I got stuck watching YouTube videos of mediocre standup comedy instead of leaning over a bit and grabbing my book that I’m extremely into and very much want to find out what happens.The definition I like most, which isn’t out of whack with what the standards tend towards, is something that’s:
- a measurable or observable set of behaviors
- causing distress to the individual
- or causing development difficulties in children
- or causing objective material harm to the individual or others
If it’s causing the individual stress, or it’s clearly causing problems in their life, it’s something that should be addressed. Sometimes the easiest way to address it is just an environmental accomodation, like self directed learning, a pair of headphones, or permission to excuse yourself for a moment. I had a workplace unknowingly (to me and to them) accommodate me by putting down some anti fatigue mats where I would pace to a comical degree every day.
A big issue in my book is that disorder is an overloaded term. Colloquially disorder means “broken”, and it doesn’t mean that clinically.
A person with a learning disorder who can be helped by putting them in a more self directed learning environment still has a disorder that needs accomodation because they’re not performing to the standards of their peers.
There’s also a distinction between “mental disorder” and “neurodevelopmental disorder”, with the disorder of mental disorders being the biggest one associated with the word “disorder”.I think it’s good that people like you ask these questions, because that’s part of what helps push society towards an understanding that many of these disorders are really just a very wide spectrum of differences from a rough average, and that our world needs to just be a little more flexible for people who do it a little different. It’s caused a lot of more modern primary education systems to be more flexible and trained in the benign accomodations that some kids need, for example. (My nephew also has ADHD and he’s having a much better experience in school than I did, of only because they were like “some kids with ADHD just have terrible handwriting, instead of endless drills, here’s your Chromebook you do all your work on now”)
In the end, I think we need to be able to categorize things in order to be able to know how to fix up people’s environments when that’s the right answer. We also need to be aware that sometimes the environment isn’t the best fix, and that a medication can be the best way to help a person.
For your example, I would say the individual has “crazy tall disorder” which has some easy environmental accomodations (Padded corners on cabinets), individual accomodations (teaching them proper lifting techniques and posture early since height and bad backs go hand in hand), and occasionally medical intervention (gentle back strength exercises, back and knee braces, closer monitoring of cardiac function for the truly extremely tall).Categorization helps us better understand how things are related, what the bounds on the spectrum are, and what accomodations can be made that help the most people, and when it’s something that needs more focused attention.
It’s not the categorization that’s the problem, it’s the stigmatization or inflexibility that causes issues.Thanks a lot for having taken time to respond so thoroughly. I must say I haven’t thought about things from this angle.
The part about the book and the mediocre comedian definitely rings a bell. Getting stuck in stupid local extrema (like in optimization) more often than necessary is definitely a thing with me.
ADHD is symptoms a lot of people have, but dialed up to the point that it is disruptive enough to be a disorder.
Trouble falling asleep because your mind is racing a couple times a year, or occasionally misplace something? Probably not. If it happens a few times a week then probably…
Does it help if someone forces you to do the thing or is is better to give time and space until you decide to do it? Asking for a friend.
Depends on the thing.
Super high level, ADHD is an issue with the reward system of the brain failing to deliver reward when it’s supposed to. Your brain is supposed to try to find a new task when it’s not getting it’s reward anymore; it’s how that frontal cortex problem solving engine gets driven around by all the parts that handle motivation, wants and desires.
Sometimes no reward is being given, so you keep slipping off to a different task, and sometimes too much reward is being given and so you stay on a task way too long.
And, to be clear: these are not huge rewards we’re talking about like a wave of pleasure or noticable feeling, just the baseline steering signals.Sometimes the task you need to do provides no “normal” reward but neither does what you’re doing right now, so your problem solver sees no reason to switch. Sometimes a nudge can help because fulfilling a request or suggestion can come with some reward, or at least you’re just swapping out neutral tasks with some minor effort.
Sometimes the task is unpleasant to some minor degree, so not only is the reward not there, it’s also a punishment. Or the thing you’re currently doing is providing some degree of reward.
In either case, switching means actively going against everything your problem solver uses to decide what to do. Needless to say, that’s really hard, and being nudged often feels more like being nagged, or like they’re upset with you, because your problem solver (also known as your conscious self) knows this is all going on, but knowing how the engine is working doesn’t make it work differently.
So you’ve been sitting there trying to push a granite block up a hill for an hour, and then someone comes up and starts pushing on your back. They haven’t removed the part that made it hard, but they added something uncomfortable to your current situation.Before I got on medication following my diagnosis, me and my partner handled it by just being really cognizant of what our mental states are, and communicating clearly. “You asked me to remind you”, “I need to do it, but I’m stuck”, and effectively asking for permission before annoying someone to the point where the current blocker is less desirable than doing the thing. Requires a lot of trust and good communication though.
It’s difficult to describe subjective feelings, but what can sometimes look like “sitting on the couch watching short YouTube videos about sheep dogs instead of brushing your teeth and going to bed” is actually: sitting on the couch bored out of your mind and desperately wanting to go to bed, but the sheepdogs are providing short bursts of novelty and cute. Removing your lap blanket provides no joy and makes you cold. Standing up provides no joy and makes you less comfortable. Walking to the bathroom provides no joy and now you’re in the dark bathroom. Brushing your teeth provides no joy, tastes bad, and is intensely boring. Walking to the bedroom provides no joy. Getting into bed and snuggling up provides joy.
Summed up: sheep dogs provide continuous minor joy, and only costs the physical misery of staying awake, the confused guilt of paralysis, and the promise of future misery. Going to bed is a promise of some joy, but it comes with a bunch of steps that are at best neutral and often entail anti-joy. It just doesn’t add up. Other people get a tiny hit of joy from each substep, which is why they can say “I’m done looking at sheepdogs, I’m going to bed” and then just magically do it.“Before you go to bed, you need to slowly press your bare foot into this fresh dog poop, toes spread of course” isn’t often made better by someone saying “it’s not that bad, come on, you can do it, I believe in you, then you can get some rest for once”.
That youtube short part really hurts, I know thats whats going on, but getting the move on is so impossible. I also can’t get my brain to understand that sleeping is not wasting time, even while I’m wasting time watching nothings on youtube.
Sometimes I picture my prefrontal cortex as a well meaning bureaucrat who’s just like "oh, trust me, I know the rules are terrible and there’s an active problem. Nothing I can do about it though, I just work here. Second that order comes in though, I’m on it boss, you better believe. You’re gonna want to talk to my manager. Yeah, he doesn’t take calls. It sucks, could maybe get something fixed around here. "
Can you expand on this please? I don’t know what my prefrontal cortex’s role is and don’t get what this means. If it’s a way of getting past the task resistance, that would be very helpful.
Does all of this ring true for anybody else without diagnosed ADHD? Because this is exactly how I feel constantly but I also hate to self-diagnose based on internet discussion.
I feel like ADHD is one of those things where everybody relates to it a bit, so it’s hard to know if I should look into getting a diagnosis.
Don’t self diagnose based on a single internet discussion but self diagnosis is crucial to getting yourself some relief. I didn’t get a diagnosis until I was about 40, and even at this point the change was dramatic. I don’t take stimulants but I take a few medications and it made life so much easier, I doubled my salary in 3 years, bought a house, just had a fantastic few years. But I also have a ton of trauma, I hurt a lot of people and myself from being so chaotic and depressed and incapable of processing thoughts or feelings, or being able to handle basic finances. I also lost like 15 years of good life where I could have been successful and happy instead of depressed and stuck in a shitty job with no clear way out.
If you’re reading these discussions and realizing that it seems a little too familiar, take this seriously. If you decide you have it, don’t take anyone’s word that you don’t. Its hard to get treated IMO, so if you see a therapist and they don’t want to treat you for ADHD, then bye bye, find another one who will take it seriously. I went to therapists on and off for years trying to figure out why I was depressed, and they basically told me I was okay, the normal amount of unhappy with regular life stuff. I finally got on a mild antidepressant and it helped immensely. I fought and found out the antidepressant had an off label use for treating mild ADHD, and when my daughter got diagnosed I looked more into it. When I went to therapists to get treated for ADHD, they told me I was just depressed. so you gotta fight for yourself, but this world is a fuck, and it can be extremely worth while once you get what you might need.
Personally it all comes down to adrenaline. If a task stresses me out enough to hit me with some adrenaline I’ll complete it immediately.
If not then I’m either doing nothing while thinking about the task or forgetting the task existed at all.
You can try ans give motivation, offer emotional support, sometimes even offer to do the thing together (sometimes just arranging a thing is a good way to not let it slide), but forcing will have the opposite effect and will only add to the internal pressure that is already there (but you won’t probably see) and that is not enough. Of course it depends on the person, you can also ask your friend, as long as you accept the answer as a fact with no judgement (it’s not easy but probably it will be appreciated)
For me personally, and a few others I know, it’s definitely the latter. However, everyone is different, so it’d be interesting to see other people’s replies.
Agreed. Definitely the latter.
I think this is way more of a shitty personality trait of mine than anything, but for some reason, if I’ve already gotten in the headspace to do something, and I’m preparing for it or thinking about it at that moment, etc. and someone tells me to do, I either get angry, almost like a, “I’m not an idiot you don’t have to tell me,” kind of way, or it totally deflates me and I get knocked out of that headspace for some reason.
I don’t get what that is, but after having to wrestle with my own brain just to get simple tasks completed, having that additional stress just messes me up.
I think the reaction depends on how aware one is of how one’s flow state works. Neurotypical people seem to be able to get back into it much easier than us ADHD types, but I think that’s often because our flow states tend to be deeper, so it’s much more annoying to be knocked out of it for seemingly trivial reasons by people who don’t know how hard it is to get back into that state after an interruption.
In my opinion, this is (mostly) a “training issue”. If I know this is how my brain works, it’s my job to train those around me on how to help me be as efficient as possible, even if it’s something as simple as “if my headphones are on, do not interrupt me unless something is ON FIRE, OR if I have been working for more than 3 hours without a break.”
If either of those things are true, it’s also my job to not be annoyed by the interruption, which is of course often harder than the interruption itself.
I feel this applies to more than just adhd, for example things like burn-out and depression.
ADHD is just a bunch of symptoms in a trench coat.
Yeah everyone pees, but if you do it 60 times a day, you should probably ask why, no?
ADHD often comes with some degree of low-grade anxiety/depression tbh
I remember talking to my therapist about how I’m not worried about forgetting something, I’m always worried about what I haven’t realized I have forgotten and is already causing a problem. I just live in a constant state of “something is on fire I just haven’t smelled the smoke yet.” it’s not quite PTSD, but it is certainly something analogous and it’s always this low level hum of stress. At least that’s what I took from my conversation with her.
Fucking hell. I have days or weeks where this happens for me but eventually passes. Usually it’s time related for me. Like I’ve missed an appointment. But there isn’t one?? 🤷♂️
I haven’t been to the eye doctor in over 5 years so that’s a fun one to randomly remember.
You know, just this week I saw the dermatologist again after several years. One of my medications makes me more susceptible to skin cancer and I needed a prescription related to a skin condition refilled.
So I needed to go more than most. I have plenty of other simple things I’ve been waiting months to do, but it IS possible to knock these things out.
Appreciate the encouragement. It’s silly I haven’t gone
If you make a venn diagram of the symptoms of ADHD, PTSD, burnout, anxiety, bipolar, and autism you get pretty close to a circle
Yah this feels so similar to autism. Interesting how there’s so much overlap. Has anyone tried to make a venn diagram like that or would it be too complex? /gen
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