I would argue that setting up cooperatives under capitalism is extremely difficult since it requires a huge amount of capital to be invested up front. People that can put this investment forth then become the owners of the venture and not the laborers themselves. Again you have private ownership of the means of production.
But even if the laborers come up with the investment themselves, then usually each laborer individually owns a portion of the venture and gets the value created paid out according to that. However truly collective ownership over the means of production means that no one individually owns any part of the venture but everyone collectively owns the whole thing. Such a construct is not really possible or very very very difficult to set up within a capitalist legal framework.
The fact that people do want ownership however can be seen by the lengths they will go to if able. Every communist revolution had at its core a demand for collective ownership over arable land, factories etc. And they fought bloody battles against the private owning class thats how much they wanted it. At the moment however this cost is too high compared to our current lifestyle which is why people dont organize a war against the owning class.
But often I go into a supermarket and wonder what it would look like if the cashiers, the people stocking the shelves, cleaning the floors, transporting the goods, owned it. A lot less white fluorescent lighting I’d imagine. Or what if the tenants of a huge building owned the entire thing themselves and any rent they paid got put to use for the building they occupy. And I think if people actually thought about what it would mean for them to own the workplaces they work at or the buildings they live in, then I think most would agree that they would much rather have that, than have some other people owning it all who arent affected in how it is run in their day to day lives, but only skim the profit.
The Russian civil war was fought with 1% or 2% of the population. It’s not the majority that fights to own things.
Owning means to constantly think for the company and constantly try to optimize it. There is no time off. It’s a job on its own that is more than just skimming the profits.
I dont know where you got the 1% or 2% from, could you link it please? There were uprisings against the kulak class all over the country.
Owning a company, if you’re rich enough actually does mean you just skim off the top. That’s why it’s called “passive income”. You pay others to manage the company and optimize it. It’s definitely not a 9-5 job you get to come and go as you please and often the company does worse when the owners get involved because they dont know what they’re talking about. See e.g. Elon Musk and Tesla or Twitter.
We were talking about people taking ownership over the means of production, that was more than the people in the red army. People all over russia confronted the kulaks and literally took ownership of the land. It was a very chaotic time, sometimes they dealt with the kulaks via mob justice, sometimes with help from the red army, a few private owners saw the tides turning and willingly ceded whatever they had and integrated into the collective. Also the revolution preceded the civil war. The civil war was a response of the capitalists to the people taking ownership.
As for companies where the owners skim of the top, all the major ones. With stocks for instance the owners typically arent involved in the operation but just collect dividends and get together to vote a CEO, CFO etc. to operate the company for them. With others like Meta or Tesla you can see how good it is when the owners try to ram their passion projects through like with the Cybertruck or the metaverse. The whole point of “passive income” is exactly that, to make the most money from the smallest effort so you can do whatever you want.
Thanks for the insights. I thought it was only Stalin who decided to collectivice the farming.
With stocks for instance the owners typically arent involved in the operation
Those are not the real owners but people who rent money.
There are always shareholders who control the board and who make the ultimate decisions. They decide when they want to meet but nevertheless I don’t think that they do much more than managing their companies which includes networking. So even when they don’t work, they will be ‘on’.
No pity, they are rewarded more than enough.
I would argue that setting up cooperatives under capitalism is extremely difficult since it requires a huge amount of capital to be invested up front. People that can put this investment forth then become the owners of the venture and not the laborers themselves. Again you have private ownership of the means of production.
But even if the laborers come up with the investment themselves, then usually each laborer individually owns a portion of the venture and gets the value created paid out according to that. However truly collective ownership over the means of production means that no one individually owns any part of the venture but everyone collectively owns the whole thing. Such a construct is not really possible or very very very difficult to set up within a capitalist legal framework.
The fact that people do want ownership however can be seen by the lengths they will go to if able. Every communist revolution had at its core a demand for collective ownership over arable land, factories etc. And they fought bloody battles against the private owning class thats how much they wanted it. At the moment however this cost is too high compared to our current lifestyle which is why people dont organize a war against the owning class.
But often I go into a supermarket and wonder what it would look like if the cashiers, the people stocking the shelves, cleaning the floors, transporting the goods, owned it. A lot less white fluorescent lighting I’d imagine. Or what if the tenants of a huge building owned the entire thing themselves and any rent they paid got put to use for the building they occupy. And I think if people actually thought about what it would mean for them to own the workplaces they work at or the buildings they live in, then I think most would agree that they would much rather have that, than have some other people owning it all who arent affected in how it is run in their day to day lives, but only skim the profit.
Overall I agree with two exceptions.
The Russian civil war was fought with 1% or 2% of the population. It’s not the majority that fights to own things.
Owning means to constantly think for the company and constantly try to optimize it. There is no time off. It’s a job on its own that is more than just skimming the profits.
I dont know where you got the 1% or 2% from, could you link it please? There were uprisings against the kulak class all over the country.
Owning a company, if you’re rich enough actually does mean you just skim off the top. That’s why it’s called “passive income”. You pay others to manage the company and optimize it. It’s definitely not a 9-5 job you get to come and go as you please and often the company does worse when the owners get involved because they dont know what they’re talking about. See e.g. Elon Musk and Tesla or Twitter.
I should have looked it up before. I don’t remember my original source.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War
The red army had 6 million out of 280 million citizens of the USSR. So it’s a bit more.
How long do those companies exist? If owners just skim, I would expect most companies to dissolve sooner than later.
We were talking about people taking ownership over the means of production, that was more than the people in the red army. People all over russia confronted the kulaks and literally took ownership of the land. It was a very chaotic time, sometimes they dealt with the kulaks via mob justice, sometimes with help from the red army, a few private owners saw the tides turning and willingly ceded whatever they had and integrated into the collective. Also the revolution preceded the civil war. The civil war was a response of the capitalists to the people taking ownership.
As for companies where the owners skim of the top, all the major ones. With stocks for instance the owners typically arent involved in the operation but just collect dividends and get together to vote a CEO, CFO etc. to operate the company for them. With others like Meta or Tesla you can see how good it is when the owners try to ram their passion projects through like with the Cybertruck or the metaverse. The whole point of “passive income” is exactly that, to make the most money from the smallest effort so you can do whatever you want.
Thanks for the insights. I thought it was only Stalin who decided to collectivice the farming.
Those are not the real owners but people who rent money.
There are always shareholders who control the board and who make the ultimate decisions. They decide when they want to meet but nevertheless I don’t think that they do much more than managing their companies which includes networking. So even when they don’t work, they will be ‘on’. No pity, they are rewarded more than enough.