At “best” they are an accelerationist, seeing Trump as a useful idiot to burn it all down, and then they can swoop in and “save” us. At worse, you’ve reached the Kremlin Election Emergency Hotline…
I’d vote for kamala, thank god i’m not a USer. I’m just saying that the only way someone like trump can get there is when progressives stop being progressive, when democratic politicians are not pressured in pushing the overton window left, then inevitably fascists will throw it to the right. Your shitty attitude is part of the problem and your refusal to even entertain any thought outside the voting binary shows how much of a tool you are
Disingenuous. Nobody is suggesting not to vote outside the binary; what they’re suggesting is to be realistic, rational, intelligent, and understand that you can’t start a race at the finish line.
There is no viable third party in America on a presidential scale. Period.
This does not mean there never will be.
But no, that change is not ever going to happen by a sudden upset win in the presidency. Ever. EVER. If you give a shit about breaking the binary, get out in the fucking streets and do the hard but necessary work of building a third party up from the roots. If you want to see a Green Party president, then put in the work of proving first that Green Party local representatives, school board members, etc., are worthy candidates with a proven track record. (Green is just an example, substitute it with whatever you want and don’t get caught up in that irrelevant choice)
Yes, this is long, and yes, this sucks. It doesn’t matter. Life sucks. This is how real change happens.
Unless you’re just an accelerationist, in which case, fuck you for being willing to risk the lives of countless decent citizens just because you’re too lazy to do the hard work of building a movement up from the ground floor. Revolution might be necessary, but you’re a dick if you run to it before exhausting more reasonable less-violent options.
Bottom line, being in reality means understanding that the presidential election is a binary until we do the hard work so that it isn’t, and pouting about it isn’t protest; it’s bending over and taking whatever they want to give you in abject impotency.
This debate is not exclusive to the election run, it’s just that you ignore it until the finish line then berate people for “talking about it only at the end”
Absolute bullshit. The people who are actually boots on ground doing the work are not the people making the claims. They know the hard work that is necessary and they know the benefit of voting even if the impact is incremental. The whole objection is that the people who talk about protest voting are the ones who only drop into the game at the finish line.
What are you talking about. Every time the Dems go left they lose, so they go to the center to find voters. Want them to be more progressive? Then give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
Glad you’re not live from Moscow! But I didn’t make it a binary choice. The stupid fucking GOP did by nominating the Orange Shitstain of a fascist. Never Trump conservatives will be a huge part of Harris being elected. So let us get this election out of the way, get the shitstain incarcerated, and then we can keep pushing the agenda left. For the most part I agree with you, and voted 3rd party pretty consistently up to 2016.
The problem is that everytime is “let’s wait for the election then push them left” and it never works.
This is not the fault of voters or non voters, it’s that American democracy is not a democracy, the parties never listen to the will of the people. And that’s why voting ultimately doesn’t change anything, because it’s just a pretext to make you think you are making a difference. As important as it is to vote, that is how our leaders view it.
Why so angry? NPC moment for real. If god forbid i was American i’d vote for kamala but this high and mighty attitude of never holding your politicians accountable and ostracizing anyone who even dares whisper such thing is exactly what allows fascists like trump to reach the vote. Your blind rage for any kind of complex thought that goes beyond “blue good and red bad” is not as democratic as you think.
Withholding your vote isn’t punishing your politicians, it’s punishing yourself. Absolutely nothing about voting implies you cannot hold your politicians accountable.
And I think you’re wrong. I think coddling people and indulging their juvenile entitlement desires to take their ball and go home does real world harm.
If you view a section of the electorate as children that will push back on you and ‘go home’ then continue to engage them in patronizing ways, your acting against your own desires when you simply could have been quiet. Therefore, you also are doing real world harm. You just feel like your harm is somehow more just.
If the people you insist on patronizing don’t show up, you lose the election, is that worth feeling morally superior to someone else?
Get off your horse, pardner.
No one talked about coddling. Just fricking talk to people like you actually want to understand their POV instead of feeling like you’re the only moral people in the world.
Incredibly hypocritical and “”“juvenile”“” is how you choose to act
Who says not to hold them accountable? People are merely saying, when it comes down to it, vote knowing the actually possible outcomes for your preference. If someone is particularly bad, vote against them, if someone with a shot who is really good, vote for them.
Where was all the “we are just holding them accountable” during the primaries? Why wasn’t there a movement to challenge Biden in the primary, if it were so important to hold him accountable?
People are justifiably suspicious that in all the ways that could matter (down ballot, primaries, even day to day protests outside of election season) the “revolutionary left” is suspiciously quiet and suddenly they are yelling from the rooftops in the singular race that they can not “win”, only screw up.
What the fuck are you on about. The other guy is saying, on record, he’s the fascist.
Your side has been saying the world was going to end since Obama was elected.
It’s the same, tired, racist, bullshit.
Fuck off, Nazi.
At “best” they are an accelerationist, seeing Trump as a useful idiot to burn it all down, and then they can swoop in and “save” us. At worse, you’ve reached the Kremlin Election Emergency Hotline…
I’d vote for kamala, thank god i’m not a USer. I’m just saying that the only way someone like trump can get there is when progressives stop being progressive, when democratic politicians are not pressured in pushing the overton window left, then inevitably fascists will throw it to the right. Your shitty attitude is part of the problem and your refusal to even entertain any thought outside the voting binary shows how much of a tool you are
Disingenuous. Nobody is suggesting not to vote outside the binary; what they’re suggesting is to be realistic, rational, intelligent, and understand that you can’t start a race at the finish line.
There is no viable third party in America on a presidential scale. Period.
This does not mean there never will be.
But no, that change is not ever going to happen by a sudden upset win in the presidency. Ever. EVER. If you give a shit about breaking the binary, get out in the fucking streets and do the hard but necessary work of building a third party up from the roots. If you want to see a Green Party president, then put in the work of proving first that Green Party local representatives, school board members, etc., are worthy candidates with a proven track record. (Green is just an example, substitute it with whatever you want and don’t get caught up in that irrelevant choice)
Yes, this is long, and yes, this sucks. It doesn’t matter. Life sucks. This is how real change happens.
Unless you’re just an accelerationist, in which case, fuck you for being willing to risk the lives of countless decent citizens just because you’re too lazy to do the hard work of building a movement up from the ground floor. Revolution might be necessary, but you’re a dick if you run to it before exhausting more reasonable less-violent options.
Bottom line, being in reality means understanding that the presidential election is a binary until we do the hard work so that it isn’t, and pouting about it isn’t protest; it’s bending over and taking whatever they want to give you in abject impotency.
This debate is not exclusive to the election run, it’s just that you ignore it until the finish line then berate people for “talking about it only at the end”
Absolute bullshit. The people who are actually boots on ground doing the work are not the people making the claims. They know the hard work that is necessary and they know the benefit of voting even if the impact is incremental. The whole objection is that the people who talk about protest voting are the ones who only drop into the game at the finish line.
Again, just because you don’t see it it doesn’t mean it’s not there
What are you talking about. Every time the Dems go left they lose, so they go to the center to find voters. Want them to be more progressive? Then give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
Glad you’re not live from Moscow! But I didn’t make it a binary choice. The stupid fucking GOP did by nominating the Orange Shitstain of a fascist. Never Trump conservatives will be a huge part of Harris being elected. So let us get this election out of the way, get the shitstain incarcerated, and then we can keep pushing the agenda left. For the most part I agree with you, and voted 3rd party pretty consistently up to 2016.
The problem is that everytime is “let’s wait for the election then push them left” and it never works.
This is not the fault of voters or non voters, it’s that American democracy is not a democracy, the parties never listen to the will of the people. And that’s why voting ultimately doesn’t change anything, because it’s just a pretext to make you think you are making a difference. As important as it is to vote, that is how our leaders view it.
Maybe you were right. Fuck man. I don’t know.
Why so angry? NPC moment for real. If god forbid i was American i’d vote for kamala but this high and mighty attitude of never holding your politicians accountable and ostracizing anyone who even dares whisper such thing is exactly what allows fascists like trump to reach the vote. Your blind rage for any kind of complex thought that goes beyond “blue good and red bad” is not as democratic as you think.
Drink a goddamn chamomile
Withholding your vote isn’t punishing your politicians, it’s punishing yourself. Absolutely nothing about voting implies you cannot hold your politicians accountable.
I’ve never talked about not voting, if you read my comments. I just think acting high and mighty towards disillusioned people is part of the problem
And I think you’re wrong. I think coddling people and indulging their juvenile entitlement desires to take their ball and go home does real world harm.
If you view a section of the electorate as children that will push back on you and ‘go home’ then continue to engage them in patronizing ways, your acting against your own desires when you simply could have been quiet. Therefore, you also are doing real world harm. You just feel like your harm is somehow more just.
If the people you insist on patronizing don’t show up, you lose the election, is that worth feeling morally superior to someone else?
Get off your horse, pardner. No one talked about coddling. Just fricking talk to people like you actually want to understand their POV instead of feeling like you’re the only moral people in the world.
Incredibly hypocritical and “”“juvenile”“” is how you choose to act
Who says not to hold them accountable? People are merely saying, when it comes down to it, vote knowing the actually possible outcomes for your preference. If someone is particularly bad, vote against them, if someone with a shot who is really good, vote for them.
Where was all the “we are just holding them accountable” during the primaries? Why wasn’t there a movement to challenge Biden in the primary, if it were so important to hold him accountable?
People are justifiably suspicious that in all the ways that could matter (down ballot, primaries, even day to day protests outside of election season) the “revolutionary left” is suspiciously quiet and suddenly they are yelling from the rooftops in the singular race that they can not “win”, only screw up.
That’s just false, protests and criticisms happen outside of races too, you just don’t see it
There was a movement to hold biden accountable, you just ignored it