One day you’ll understand what “non voting leftists” truly mean.
When kamala wins, and the world still spirals into fascism, maybe you’ll see what they mean
At “best” they are an accelerationist, seeing Trump as a useful idiot to burn it all down, and then they can swoop in and “save” us. At worse, you’ve reached the Kremlin Election Emergency Hotline…
I’d vote for kamala, thank god i’m not a USer. I’m just saying that the only way someone like trump can get there is when progressives stop being progressive, when democratic politicians are not pressured in pushing the overton window left, then inevitably fascists will throw it to the right. Your shitty attitude is part of the problem and your refusal to even entertain any thought outside the voting binary shows how much of a tool you are
Disingenuous. Nobody is suggesting not to vote outside the binary; what they’re suggesting is to be realistic, rational, intelligent, and understand that you can’t start a race at the finish line.
There is no viable third party in America on a presidential scale. Period.
This does not mean there never will be.
But no, that change is not ever going to happen by a sudden upset win in the presidency. Ever. EVER. If you give a shit about breaking the binary, get out in the fucking streets and do the hard but necessary work of building a third party up from the roots. If you want to see a Green Party president, then put in the work of proving first that Green Party local representatives, school board members, etc., are worthy candidates with a proven track record. (Green is just an example, substitute it with whatever you want and don’t get caught up in that irrelevant choice)
Yes, this is long, and yes, this sucks. It doesn’t matter. Life sucks. This is how real change happens.
Unless you’re just an accelerationist, in which case, fuck you for being willing to risk the lives of countless decent citizens just because you’re too lazy to do the hard work of building a movement up from the ground floor. Revolution might be necessary, but you’re a dick if you run to it before exhausting more reasonable less-violent options.
Bottom line, being in reality means understanding that the presidential election is a binary until we do the hard work so that it isn’t, and pouting about it isn’t protest; it’s bending over and taking whatever they want to give you in abject impotency.
This debate is not exclusive to the election run, it’s just that you ignore it until the finish line then berate people for “talking about it only at the end”
Absolute bullshit. The people who are actually boots on ground doing the work are not the people making the claims. They know the hard work that is necessary and they know the benefit of voting even if the impact is incremental. The whole objection is that the people who talk about protest voting are the ones who only drop into the game at the finish line.
What are you talking about. Every time the Dems go left they lose, so they go to the center to find voters. Want them to be more progressive? Then give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
Glad you’re not live from Moscow! But I didn’t make it a binary choice. The stupid fucking GOP did by nominating the Orange Shitstain of a fascist. Never Trump conservatives will be a huge part of Harris being elected. So let us get this election out of the way, get the shitstain incarcerated, and then we can keep pushing the agenda left. For the most part I agree with you, and voted 3rd party pretty consistently up to 2016.
The problem is that everytime is “let’s wait for the election then push them left” and it never works.
This is not the fault of voters or non voters, it’s that American democracy is not a democracy, the parties never listen to the will of the people. And that’s why voting ultimately doesn’t change anything, because it’s just a pretext to make you think you are making a difference. As important as it is to vote, that is how our leaders view it.
Why so angry? NPC moment for real. If god forbid i was American i’d vote for kamala but this high and mighty attitude of never holding your politicians accountable and ostracizing anyone who even dares whisper such thing is exactly what allows fascists like trump to reach the vote. Your blind rage for any kind of complex thought that goes beyond “blue good and red bad” is not as democratic as you think.
Withholding your vote isn’t punishing your politicians, it’s punishing yourself. Absolutely nothing about voting implies you cannot hold your politicians accountable.
And I think you’re wrong. I think coddling people and indulging their juvenile entitlement desires to take their ball and go home does real world harm.
If you view a section of the electorate as children that will push back on you and ‘go home’ then continue to engage them in patronizing ways, your acting against your own desires when you simply could have been quiet. Therefore, you also are doing real world harm. You just feel like your harm is somehow more just.
If the people you insist on patronizing don’t show up, you lose the election, is that worth feeling morally superior to someone else?
Get off your horse, pardner.
No one talked about coddling. Just fricking talk to people like you actually want to understand their POV instead of feeling like you’re the only moral people in the world.
Incredibly hypocritical and “”“juvenile”“” is how you choose to act
Who says not to hold them accountable? People are merely saying, when it comes down to it, vote knowing the actually possible outcomes for your preference. If someone is particularly bad, vote against them, if someone with a shot who is really good, vote for them.
Where was all the “we are just holding them accountable” during the primaries? Why wasn’t there a movement to challenge Biden in the primary, if it were so important to hold him accountable?
People are justifiably suspicious that in all the ways that could matter (down ballot, primaries, even day to day protests outside of election season) the “revolutionary left” is suspiciously quiet and suddenly they are yelling from the rooftops in the singular race that they can not “win”, only screw up.
Talking to people instead of constantly judging them =\ coddling
For a party called “democrats” you don’t really act like your neighbor is a person like you. They disagree so they should suck it up and do what you want.
Look in the mirror and find the source of the dems losses. Not non-voters. Your attitude
How does voting help? It’s just a dumb question, and I, personally, am not saying people shouldn’t vote. I’m just saying not to act like voting will stop fascism and not voting will enable it, it’s just not that simple
Nobody is saying or thinking that sincerely, but the idea of not voting is like playing a game of chess against facism and refusing to use your Queen.
Nobody thinks voting is the whole solution or the whole problem, and nobody thinks that all of our problems hinge solely on the vote.
Voting doesn’t solve everything and it doesn’t replace hard work. But rationally speaking, in raw terms of time and effort input vs impact output, the low cost of entry of voting simply makes it one of the most impactful things you can do to affect change in America pound-for-pound in terms of effort, period. Change is hard and voting in most places takes less than a hour total. If you tell me you’re trying to fight the good fight but you won’t sacrifice one hour for something with the equivalent punching weight many many times greater than that effort, I will assume you are either an absolute idiot or you’re just here in bad faith.
A non vote is a vote, a vote against an elecotral system that doesn’t work. The fact that said system ignores non voters is a fault in democracy, not in the people.
Now, i can agree with saying “look, this candidate is so much worse that it’s worth it to go even if you don’t like it”
What i don’t agree with is telling people that are OBJECTIVELY right in not wanting to be part of endorsing a genocider that they are like nazis, that the world is gonna crumble because of them.
Maybe if you tried to understand their point of view they might change their minds. That is the problem with you americans, like good patriarchs everything is a binary and if you do not think the same as me you’re automatically the worst interpretation of my enemy. You yourself might have not beahved like this, and i appreciate it, but most people in these comments automatically assumed that I wouldn’t vote or that I would encourage others to not do it.
I am just saying, stop being so judgemental when you don’t really know people’s reasoning for what they choose to do. People hate this attitude and the DEM party constantly uses it. No wonder they lose when it matters the most.
You’re never going to get an election victory that results in “now our opponent is dead forever. Congratulations you can stop paying attention and don’t have to try anymore”
There is no such thing as a final victory, you lose when you stop trying. No one wins forever.
I’m starting to suspect the anti-vax stuff is just people dressing up their fear of getting a needle, and the anti-electorial stuff is just people dressing up their excuse for why they don’t want to leave the house to run a quick errand.
No, i’m just surrounded by people who don’t know reading comprehension. I never said people shouldn’t vote, i am not the projection of the people you despise, i am my own individual with my own view. Ppl here are talking to me like i am endorsing trump while i am just fucking saying you should also look to yourselves and your methods if you really want to find out why people don’t vote
One day you’ll understand what “non voting leftists” truly mean. When kamala wins, and the world still spirals into fascism, maybe you’ll see what they mean
What the fuck are you on about. The other guy is saying, on record, he’s the fascist.
Your side has been saying the world was going to end since Obama was elected.
It’s the same, tired, racist, bullshit.
Fuck off, Nazi.
At “best” they are an accelerationist, seeing Trump as a useful idiot to burn it all down, and then they can swoop in and “save” us. At worse, you’ve reached the Kremlin Election Emergency Hotline…
I’d vote for kamala, thank god i’m not a USer. I’m just saying that the only way someone like trump can get there is when progressives stop being progressive, when democratic politicians are not pressured in pushing the overton window left, then inevitably fascists will throw it to the right. Your shitty attitude is part of the problem and your refusal to even entertain any thought outside the voting binary shows how much of a tool you are
Disingenuous. Nobody is suggesting not to vote outside the binary; what they’re suggesting is to be realistic, rational, intelligent, and understand that you can’t start a race at the finish line.
There is no viable third party in America on a presidential scale. Period.
This does not mean there never will be.
But no, that change is not ever going to happen by a sudden upset win in the presidency. Ever. EVER. If you give a shit about breaking the binary, get out in the fucking streets and do the hard but necessary work of building a third party up from the roots. If you want to see a Green Party president, then put in the work of proving first that Green Party local representatives, school board members, etc., are worthy candidates with a proven track record. (Green is just an example, substitute it with whatever you want and don’t get caught up in that irrelevant choice)
Yes, this is long, and yes, this sucks. It doesn’t matter. Life sucks. This is how real change happens.
Unless you’re just an accelerationist, in which case, fuck you for being willing to risk the lives of countless decent citizens just because you’re too lazy to do the hard work of building a movement up from the ground floor. Revolution might be necessary, but you’re a dick if you run to it before exhausting more reasonable less-violent options.
Bottom line, being in reality means understanding that the presidential election is a binary until we do the hard work so that it isn’t, and pouting about it isn’t protest; it’s bending over and taking whatever they want to give you in abject impotency.
This debate is not exclusive to the election run, it’s just that you ignore it until the finish line then berate people for “talking about it only at the end”
Absolute bullshit. The people who are actually boots on ground doing the work are not the people making the claims. They know the hard work that is necessary and they know the benefit of voting even if the impact is incremental. The whole objection is that the people who talk about protest voting are the ones who only drop into the game at the finish line.
Again, just because you don’t see it it doesn’t mean it’s not there
What are you talking about. Every time the Dems go left they lose, so they go to the center to find voters. Want them to be more progressive? Then give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
Glad you’re not live from Moscow! But I didn’t make it a binary choice. The stupid fucking GOP did by nominating the Orange Shitstain of a fascist. Never Trump conservatives will be a huge part of Harris being elected. So let us get this election out of the way, get the shitstain incarcerated, and then we can keep pushing the agenda left. For the most part I agree with you, and voted 3rd party pretty consistently up to 2016.
The problem is that everytime is “let’s wait for the election then push them left” and it never works.
This is not the fault of voters or non voters, it’s that American democracy is not a democracy, the parties never listen to the will of the people. And that’s why voting ultimately doesn’t change anything, because it’s just a pretext to make you think you are making a difference. As important as it is to vote, that is how our leaders view it.
Maybe you were right. Fuck man. I don’t know.
Why so angry? NPC moment for real. If god forbid i was American i’d vote for kamala but this high and mighty attitude of never holding your politicians accountable and ostracizing anyone who even dares whisper such thing is exactly what allows fascists like trump to reach the vote. Your blind rage for any kind of complex thought that goes beyond “blue good and red bad” is not as democratic as you think.
Drink a goddamn chamomile
Withholding your vote isn’t punishing your politicians, it’s punishing yourself. Absolutely nothing about voting implies you cannot hold your politicians accountable.
I’ve never talked about not voting, if you read my comments. I just think acting high and mighty towards disillusioned people is part of the problem
And I think you’re wrong. I think coddling people and indulging their juvenile entitlement desires to take their ball and go home does real world harm.
If you view a section of the electorate as children that will push back on you and ‘go home’ then continue to engage them in patronizing ways, your acting against your own desires when you simply could have been quiet. Therefore, you also are doing real world harm. You just feel like your harm is somehow more just.
If the people you insist on patronizing don’t show up, you lose the election, is that worth feeling morally superior to someone else?
Get off your horse, pardner. No one talked about coddling. Just fricking talk to people like you actually want to understand their POV instead of feeling like you’re the only moral people in the world.
Incredibly hypocritical and “”“juvenile”“” is how you choose to act
Who says not to hold them accountable? People are merely saying, when it comes down to it, vote knowing the actually possible outcomes for your preference. If someone is particularly bad, vote against them, if someone with a shot who is really good, vote for them.
Where was all the “we are just holding them accountable” during the primaries? Why wasn’t there a movement to challenge Biden in the primary, if it were so important to hold him accountable?
People are justifiably suspicious that in all the ways that could matter (down ballot, primaries, even day to day protests outside of election season) the “revolutionary left” is suspiciously quiet and suddenly they are yelling from the rooftops in the singular race that they can not “win”, only screw up.
That’s just false, protests and criticisms happen outside of races too, you just don’t see it
There was a movement to hold biden accountable, you just ignored it
Now explain to me what of the measures you are taking to prevent this are somehow rendered moot by the act of voting.
I am not American, i am not talking about any measure, i am just saying that alienating people already alienated by politics doesn’t help either
And coddling people from the harsh realities of their circumstances helps them even less. It’s time to buck up, buttercup.
Talking to people instead of constantly judging them =\ coddling
For a party called “democrats” you don’t really act like your neighbor is a person like you. They disagree so they should suck it up and do what you want.
Look in the mirror and find the source of the dems losses. Not non-voters. Your attitude
And how does non voting help
How does voting help? It’s just a dumb question, and I, personally, am not saying people shouldn’t vote. I’m just saying not to act like voting will stop fascism and not voting will enable it, it’s just not that simple
Yappin. Non answer
You read whatever you want to read.
Nobody is saying or thinking that sincerely, but the idea of not voting is like playing a game of chess against facism and refusing to use your Queen.
Nobody thinks voting is the whole solution or the whole problem, and nobody thinks that all of our problems hinge solely on the vote.
Voting doesn’t solve everything and it doesn’t replace hard work. But rationally speaking, in raw terms of time and effort input vs impact output, the low cost of entry of voting simply makes it one of the most impactful things you can do to affect change in America pound-for-pound in terms of effort, period. Change is hard and voting in most places takes less than a hour total. If you tell me you’re trying to fight the good fight but you won’t sacrifice one hour for something with the equivalent punching weight many many times greater than that effort, I will assume you are either an absolute idiot or you’re just here in bad faith.
A non vote is a vote, a vote against an elecotral system that doesn’t work. The fact that said system ignores non voters is a fault in democracy, not in the people.
Now, i can agree with saying “look, this candidate is so much worse that it’s worth it to go even if you don’t like it” What i don’t agree with is telling people that are OBJECTIVELY right in not wanting to be part of endorsing a genocider that they are like nazis, that the world is gonna crumble because of them.
Maybe if you tried to understand their point of view they might change their minds. That is the problem with you americans, like good patriarchs everything is a binary and if you do not think the same as me you’re automatically the worst interpretation of my enemy. You yourself might have not beahved like this, and i appreciate it, but most people in these comments automatically assumed that I wouldn’t vote or that I would encourage others to not do it.
I am just saying, stop being so judgemental when you don’t really know people’s reasoning for what they choose to do. People hate this attitude and the DEM party constantly uses it. No wonder they lose when it matters the most.
You’re never going to get an election victory that results in “now our opponent is dead forever. Congratulations you can stop paying attention and don’t have to try anymore”
There is no such thing as a final victory, you lose when you stop trying. No one wins forever.
I’m starting to suspect the anti-vax stuff is just people dressing up their fear of getting a needle, and the anti-electorial stuff is just people dressing up their excuse for why they don’t want to leave the house to run a quick errand.
It funny to me that “trying” for you only amounts to voting.
I do more mutual aid than you and I still find the time to vote
You keep moving the goal posts in your commnets.
No, i’m just surrounded by people who don’t know reading comprehension. I never said people shouldn’t vote, i am not the projection of the people you despise, i am my own individual with my own view. Ppl here are talking to me like i am endorsing trump while i am just fucking saying you should also look to yourselves and your methods if you really want to find out why people don’t vote