I think transforming “it’s possible to think without language” into “language is not a tool for thought” is an overreach. Definitely a lot of our internal voice is post-thought, but crystalizing those thoughts into words can provide footholds for further thought. Some would argue it’s not possible to think through a complex issue without writing:
But in many cases, language may also serve as a framework construct around which thoughts are rendered.
Excellently stated.
I’d have to agree. Not just many cases, but all cases.
And what are thoughts if not communication with the self?
But, language is more than communication, it literally structures our world.
Not just many cases, but all cases.
Except the cases that think without words and translate afterwards. A common pattern in Autism and Aspergers.
All cases? No. Building something with LEGO. Sketching out the perspective in a drawing. Picking the next chords in your song. Manoeuvring the big couch down the hallway. Playing Tetris. There are many things requiring thought that do not use the common idea of language.
And it’s not unreasonable to expect that well-spoken, articulate individuals are also clear thinkers.
Yeah no. Aren’t there some workshops for CEO’s and managers & co. who try to learn the creative thinking of neurodiverses? Because we usually think without words, we “translate” afterwards.
Thinking is actually more efficient without language. I don’t know of any neurotypicals who think about deep physics for fun.I like both n9n verbal thought for speed, verbal for creativity.
Sometimes just saying something out loud, forcing through the social groqs creates a new outlook on something
How do you know whether or not physicists are neurotypical?
The reverse. I know that most neurodiverse are in MINT.
The reverse of what? I asked how you know whether or not they are.
How do you know?
This is interesting work, but I don’t think it justifies the plain-English summary. If you’re going to claim that language is not a tool for thought, I would expect you to demonstrate that a difference in language does not lead to a difference in thought. To answer that, you shouldn’t just look at whether language-focused brain regions are activated during non-language-based activity, but also whether a lifetime of using Language A leads to differences outside of those regions compared to a lifetime of using Language B. Isn’t that the crux of linguistic relativity? That different languages encourage and train different modes of thought?
Any chess player will tell you that they apply their “chess brain” to all sorts of things outside of chess. It’s not that we literally view life as a chessboard, but rather that a lifetime of playing chess has honed a set of mental skills that are broadly applicable. The fundamental logic applies everywhere.
In particular, some deaf children who are born to hearing parents grow up with little or no exposure to language, sometimes for years, because they cannot hear speech and their parents or caregivers do not know sign language. Lack of access to language has harmful consequences for many aspects of cognition, which is to be expected given that language provides a critical source of information for learning about the world. Nevertheless, individuals who experience language deprivation unquestionably exhibit a capacity for complex cognitive function: they can still learn to do mathematics, to engage in relational reasoning, to build causal chains, and to acquire rich and sophisticated knowledge of the world
It seems like they are using a narrower definition of “language” than is appropriate. e.g. I don’t think it’s controversial to include body language under the umbrella of “language”, so I am very skeptical of the claim that any of those deaf children had “no exposure to language”.
How does that work for aphantasia?
There have been studies suggesting prefrontal synthesis (the ability to consciously construct novel mental images) doesn’t develop in humans unless they learn a language before the age of five or so.
It makes perfect sense because A Fantasia doesn’t have any words, just A Mickey Mouse dancing A fucking Broom and shit.
That’s pretty easy to hypothesize. People generally don’t think in complete sentences, for example. Children raised without language, while often developmentally delayed, learn and exhibit plenty of thought process faster than they do language.
This is pretty interesting. I mean I’ve seen dogs dream vividly and am not quite sure how much I believe all them Babe the Pig-alike movies. :)
But I think the definition of a thought is a problem here. Everything we say (or contemplate of saying or trying to remember) is also a thought which precedes our verbal output. Those thoughts will inevitably be in a language of our preference. And actually in process of learning a new language that is often times the pivotal point - once your thoughts switch to a new language, you know you adapted it.
I would argue he shouldn’t argue it since language isn’t a tool for thought. Maybe try hooting I hear owls are smart.
