Damn, the author really hit the nail on the head with this one.
On the other side are progressives and liberals, who, according to Emba, are hesitant to say much of anything about men, especially white men, much less speak empathetically about their struggles
Being raised in the 00s when this sort of thing was on the rise, my mother was especially defensive about boys being left out. From a young kid’s perspective, I just assumed many teachers didn’t like boys, but it still kind of hurt to be treated like a fuckup. Years later, I understood why she was so annoyed at the anti-male behavior of the 00s and 10s.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing continued throughout highschool and college, with community meetings in highschool that essentially blamed rape on men, or special trips that female students were allowed to go on, but male students were not (science conventions, etc).
While I never felt the corrupting force of the Jorden Petersens and Andrew Tates of the world, I completely understand why men in different situations might feel this way. Some friends were swayed by those types for years, and turned over a new leaf when shown empathy and kindness. But that was not an overnight change. It takes awhile to undo that hurt.
The only place where boys were consistently not told they were fuckups was Boyscouts. Boys made mistakes there. They learned there. And it helped them get through tough times or work through shitty personalities. The ones that looked the least redeemable actually became incredible leaders, empathetic people, and people who now give back to society in surprising ways.
There are probably other avenues for boys and men, such as having boys start school a year later than girls. Having spaces where they can make mistakes in a fairly controlled environment, and express emotions would help. Recently, I posted a thread asking about physical affection between men and got some surprisingly good answers. So I think we will get there. At the end of the day, the vast majority of people are normal. Most just want to be treated warmly and will reciprocate that :)
It’s about goddamned time.
This has been what’s happened for the last 20 years or so:
The left: “The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are evil and destructive!”
Young men: “Okay. What should I do instead then?”
The left: “Fuck off!”
So, entirely predictably, they’ve fucked off. Right into the welcoming embrace of the toxically masculine and patriarchal right.
Call someone the devil enough and eventually they might believe you.
I don’t understand this comment. Why do you need to ask “The Left” what to do instead of not being misogynistic or promoting toxic masculinity?
Implies it’s someone elses responsibility to provide you with alternatives to being a POS rather then just doing anything else.
And in turn, I don’t understand this comment. You seem to be saying that young people should just figure things out for themselves, and asking why it should be someone else’s responsibility to provide them with guidance.
Is that what you actually believe?
The act of people calling out toxicity is the guidance. It is corrective action. It’s disciplining a child.
Your orgional comment reads
Toxic man: doing something toxic
The left: Don’t do that is toxic.
Toxic man: what should I do instead?
The left: ??? WTF ???
Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.
The answer is literally stop doing that thing. Obviously people need role models, young people are going to make mistakes, and when they make mistakes they need to be corrected. It is on the person to change their behavior. It isn’t a failure of “the left” from preventing this behavior, it’s a failure of those acting poorly to correct their behavior after being called out for it.
I just don’t understand how someone can write a comment implying it’s “the lefts” fault for not elevating people out of the absolute shit hole wasteland of ethics and behavior the GOP and right wing personalities have created. Like damn maybe you right, people like Andrew Tate are really a failing by left wing ideology to prevent them from spouting toxic nonsense.
Edit: Changed him back to them in last paragraph
Your orgional comment reads
Toxic man: doing something toxic
No it doesn’t.
It’s literally right there, just a couple of posts up from this one. There’s no excuse for misrepresenting it.
Here’s what I actually said:
The left: “The patriarchy and toxic masculinity are evil and destructive!”
Young men: “Okay. What should I do instead then?”
l>The left: “Fuck off!”
I didn’t stipulate “young” men by accident - that’s the central point. I’m not talking about adults who have already developed a set of behaviors (which makes your first sentence entirely and completely wrong). I’m talking about young people - people who are lost and confused and casting about for guidance, as virtually all young people are (and not coincidentally, that’s also what the linked article is talking about).
And ironically enough, you actually provide an example of the problem insofar as you don’t even acknowledge the distinction - you just lump them in with overtly misogynistic and toxic adults and condemn them each and all. You not only refuse to provide them with the guidance they want and need, but bristle self-righteously at the very thought that there might be any expectation that you should.
And meanwhile, people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate go out of their way to recognize them and cultivate them. And it works not least because you’ve already written them off.
Which is pretty much exactly my point, and the point of the linked article. We need to do more than simply assume that young men are automatically misogynists and therefore condemn them. We need to provide them with something positive - an actual path that they can follow that leads to a better way of living. They’re right there, right now - at the crossroads in their lives, wondering how they should go about growing into adults, and Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and their ilk are right there, right now, telling them a bunch of toxic bullshit.
And meanwhile, what are we offering them? Just what you said here - the presumption that they’re already toxic, and a bland command to knock it the fuck off.
Self-evidently, that’s not enough.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here.
Toxic man: oh guess I am just gunna keep doing what I am doing if you aren’t going to tell me what to do.
The reason this comes up is that masculinity is largely based around externally conferred social status. You have to constantly be doing something to maintain an image of masculinity. Often this means some sort of social or physical violence in the right time or place (beat up the mugger to defend your partner, call out your boss when you’re being treated unfairly, put rival men in their place). Just as frequently, however, it is the expectation of a certain amount of self sacrifice (paying for meals, military service). What they don’t understand is how anyone can expect them to maintain their social status when they are avoiding this role that they have been explicitly shown that there will be consequences if they fail to meet. The answer is simple: once you’re out of the masculinity rat race, you’re out. By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.
The only problem is that all of these pressures are external in the first place and this whole dynamic creates strong social gender boundaries. It is very easy for a lot of men to look at their social circles and see exclusively people who punish them for a failure to live up to a masculine ideal.
This is going to be counter intuitive: being a POS is something some people want. They especially want it if it promises them comfort, luxury, or status.
I mean, look at all the trash people consume everyday despite how bad it is for them. We all know it’s bad. Still, we gotta have it.
Being a POS is like drinking soda with no one to tout the benefits of drinking straight H2O. The left needs to make drinking water sexy!
Bad analogy. My choice of beverage does not affect other people.
Treating people with basic respect and as equals is no one’s responsibility to “make sexy”. Let’s say the convo was about being racist. Is it someone’s responsibility to make it cool to treat another person as an equal? Or would you be bigoted because it just how things are?
Edit: changed Influence to affect
What the fuck do you mean by “the left”? I don’t remember any leftist political party in my country adopting any such program. Or for you “the left” is random people on tumblr or something?
The left is far less monolithic than the right. It was a sub-subset of the left, a percentage of feminists were/are anti male. Unfortunately, they were not called out for this, and so got very loud about it. This coloured the message from general left leaning sources.
Growing up, there was a lot of “men are bad/evil” and that we needed to make it up to women. A lot of this pressure came from left leaning sources.
Thankfully, I managed to avoid getting drawn into the right leaning backlash to this.
